Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

30 years later, QBasic is still the best

nicolasbize.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 308 posts

Re: 30 years later, QBasic is still the best

#41

Post by jasode »

wvenable wrote: post #21
jasode wrote: post #11

>to realize that in more than 30 years, we have not been able to come up with something better for our kids: Qbasic ..., but we have never really made a simpler or more direct access to the thrill of programming than QBasic. First, I think it's really cool that he's exposing a young mind to programming. But I'm also old enough to have installed QBasic from floppy disks and part of me thinks his statements I quoted ar…

I agree with your complaints about QBasic but I disagree a bit about JavaScript. You are totally right that the environment being right there in the browser is great. But if you press F12 right now you'll find an amazing complex dialog box -- as a professional you just implicitly skip over that complexity. And JavaScript is a significantly more difficult language than QBasic even if it's one of the simpler profession…

>But if you press F12 right now you'll find an amazing complex dialog box -- as a professional you just implicitly skip over that complexity.

That observation is fascinating to me. Isn't it possible that we're judging it with adult eyes? To me, kids can filter out "ui complexity" that's not relevant to whatever exploration they are doing. Examples I think of:

A microwave oven[1] might have 25 separate buttons on it but a 6-year old will know the 2 buttons to press to heat up the popcorn. Yes, the keypad complexity handles more advanced techniques of 2-stage cooking with different power levels etc but the child just ignores all of that.

Or, how many of us grew up with those multi-component integrated stereo racks?[2] The front panel has all those buttons, sliders, knobs, and lights. And yet, a small child knows how to turn the FM knob to find his favorite radio station or rewind a cassette to replay a song.

I also see video games[3] that 6 to 8 year olds play (even if the game wasn't intended for that younger age group). To me, the screenshots show a complex "dashboard" at the bottom of weapons or other status. (I'm not a Starcraft player and it all just looks complicated and confusing to me.)

I think kids can look at the "complex" F12 screen the same way as microwave ovens, stereo receivers, and Starcraft screens: ignore the non-relevant UI elements and just type "alert ("hello");"

[1]https://www.google.com/search?q=microwave+oven+keypad&source...

[2]https://www.google.com/search?q=integrated+stereo+rack+turnt...

[3]https://www.google.com/search?q=starcraft+ii+screenshot&sour...

Re: 30 years later, QBasic is still the best

#43

Post by badminton1 »

As a person who taught himself programming (and a bit of English) with QBasic, and also have known many people that did the same. I agree with this article.

But you have other BASICs such as the one for computers such as the ZX Spectrum.

Python in my opinion can also be used to teach programming, since many high level constructs are optional and syntax is simple.

Re: 30 years later, QBasic is still the best

#44

Post by manifestsilence »

guard-of-terra wrote: post #14

I don't think that QBasic is so bad as procedural language. All the primitives are there and I've never written any code with much GOTOs in them. Just did not feel the need even when I was 10 years old. What this article clearly lacks is SCREEN 13 Seriously, unsurpassed easiness of programmable graphics. Even by javascript, which is otherwise better for teaching.

Absolutely, this is what I miss, both for myself and for teaching youngsters. Not even Python or Javascript has an easy way to just get a full screen canvas that lets you set RGB colors onto pixels and draw shapes.

The python way is to import pygame and get mired in page flipping, creating canvases, creating your own event loop, etc.

The javascript way is to create an HTML5 canvas, learn how to get page elements and store them in a variable, and where to put your code so it will run at the right time, etc.

Both have so much scaffolding before you can just create some procedural graphics and begin to reason about x and y coordinates in a way that's fun and shows the power of programming visually.

My hobby with QBasic was making variations on Conway's Game of Life. So easy and fun in that language compared to anything else.

Re: 30 years later, QBasic is still the best

#45

Post by someone_ »

I agree- we should also have just as easy of a way to start off with drawing.

Why do we need to install 50 frameworks, tell a window how to spawn, basically create a universe just to start experimenting with creating computer graphics? It's a (Width x Height) matrix of RGB values-- why can't we get a simple way to create a simple 100x100 box for kids to draw in?

No reason your son couldn't tell a screen to print colored pixels in RGB value with the right syntax.

Re: 30 years later, QBasic is still the best

#46

Post by aaronblohowiak »

someone_ wrote: post #45

I agree- we should also have just as easy of a way to start off with drawing. Why do we need to install 50 frameworks, tell a window how to spawn, basically create a universe just to start experimenting with creating computer graphics? It's a (Width x Height) matrix of RGB values-- why can't we get a simple way to create a simple 100x100 box for kids to draw in? No reason your son couldn't tell a screen to print colo…

Logo! Logo + basic were my entree into programming

Re: 30 years later, QBasic is still the best

#47

Post by dragonbonheur »

jasode wrote: post #11

>to realize that in more than 30 years, we have not been able to come up with something better for our kids: Qbasic ..., but we have never really made a simpler or more direct access to the thrill of programming than QBasic. First, I think it's really cool that he's exposing a young mind to programming. But I'm also old enough to have installed QBasic from floppy disks and part of me thinks his statements I quoted ar…

Part of learning HOW to program has always been how to SELL your program. The BASIC programming language has always offered an easy path to doing just that. No googling what to use to turn the code into an executable like Python, no learning a whole library to do that either like Javascript& the node.js nightmare. Code -> Ship -> Profit (or get famous) - Any Basic, any platform, whether your machine runs at 8Mhz or 4Ghz.

Re: 30 years later, QBasic is still the best

#48

Post by dragonbonheur »

snuxoll wrote: post #23
wvenable wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your complaints about QBasic but I disagree a bit about JavaScript. You are totally right that the environment being right there in the browser is great. But if you press F12 right now you'll find an amazing complex dialog box -- as a professional you just implicitly skip over that complexity. And JavaScript is a significantly more difficult language than QBasic even if it's one of the simpler profession…

Not quite 100% the same, but Python + QML comes pretty close, or once support for composite templates finally lands Python + GTK3.

It's always Python+X somehow, where X is a whole different thing you have to learn to get a fraction of the whole thing shipped in Python. Keep I.T. simple - teach the kids BASIC.

Re: 30 years later, QBasic is still the best

#49

Post by chocolatebunny »

wvenable wrote: post #21
jasode wrote: post #11

>to realize that in more than 30 years, we have not been able to come up with something better for our kids: Qbasic ..., but we have never really made a simpler or more direct access to the thrill of programming than QBasic. First, I think it's really cool that he's exposing a young mind to programming. But I'm also old enough to have installed QBasic from floppy disks and part of me thinks his statements I quoted ar…

I agree with your complaints about QBasic but I disagree a bit about JavaScript. You are totally right that the environment being right there in the browser is great. But if you press F12 right now you'll find an amazing complex dialog box -- as a professional you just implicitly skip over that complexity. And JavaScript is a significantly more difficult language than QBasic even if it's one of the simpler profession…

Have you looked at Scratch?

Re: 30 years later, QBasic is still the best

#50

Post by cyberfart »

I remember doing the same. Starting with a Qbasic book I had bought with the little money I had, I was already writing mud-like games and calculating prime numbers after only an hour. Though I wasn't lucky enough to have done it at that age. Lucky kid :)
Post reply on HN