Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

I wrote a small piece on planned death

hintjens.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 110 posts

Re: I wrote a small piece on planned death

#61

Post by UweSchmidt »

J-dawg wrote: post #38
UweSchmidt wrote: post #19

My take: all the recent changes in western society could be tagged with "Individualism". Fundamental changes regarding lifestyle, relationships and sexuality were enabled by the demise of collectivist ideologies like communism and national socialism which had clear ideas how humans should live, and the wealth and flexibility of modern economies, which enable the individual to exist without any dependencies except a j…

Could you elaborate on the radical and crazy changes ahead?

I am hesitating since that would put things that were just accepted very recently, wounds still healing, in a relation to things that are currently way out of bounds. Not my intention.

But just to illustrate, recently a court in Germany supposedly denied someone the right to marry their pet. Why? Ah and there was a promient case of cannibalism between consenting adults a few years ago.

Got moral, ethical concerns about it? Or just caught some phobia? Either way, the society-transforming force of Individualism will ensure that the individual will get their way and get to do whatever they want.

The Internet (find likeminded people, get crazy ideas, be happy alone) and the declining birth rates (more focus on individual uniqueness and development) have only accelerated this trend.

Re: I wrote a small piece on planned death

#63

Post by joncrocks »

datamoshr wrote: post #5

Pieters calmness as he wrote these two last pieces is admirable. As an existential thanataphobe[1] I'd love to understand a bit more on how he's come to this level of serenity and acceptance. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_anxiety_(psychology)

I think he's had a while to come to terms with it. He first got cancer in 2010 according to a blog post last year:

http://hintjens.com/blog:109

Re: I wrote a small piece on planned death

#64

Post by Someone »

mafribe wrote: post #44
loup-vaillant wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> collectivist ideologies like communism and national socialism I sense a conflation between communism and USSR dictatorship. I'm not sure this is warranted. (Then again, China is supposedly lead by a "communist party".) More generally, are you suggesting that collectivist ideologies necessarily leads to totalitarianism? > which enable the individual to exist without any dependencies except a job. That last exception…

conflation between communism and USSR dictatorship. It's a simplification, but historically warranted, in the sense that the USSR was created explicitly with the end-goal of leading to a communist society as described by Marx/Engels in the "Communist Manifesto", i.e., the ideal society where the "contradictions of capitalism" have disappeared. Moreover, the 10 points that the "Communist Manifesto" says (Chapter II. P…

"in the sense that the USSR was created explicitly with the end-goal of leading to a communist society"

That startup failed almost immediately and pivoted as a dictatorship. Calling the USSR communist is like calling Nintendo a playing card company.

Communism seems to work better for ants, bees, and termites. It also might, sort of, work for small groups of humans (extended families)

I think that explains why all communist 'startups' with over, say, 1000 people fail very soon.

Socialism has the same problem to a lesser extent. "Everybody has the right to get something" scales to larger populations than "everybody should get the same". Very few people would knowingly let their neighbors die of hunger, for example, but extending that to "come and have what we eat" is a step too far.

Re: I wrote a small piece on planned death

#65

Post by percept »

crag wrote: post #49
alanwatts wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I never understood why our society expects people to fight the good fight. One reason I would guess is the massive fortune that is made off pharmaceutical sales. If someone takes their life early, that is potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars saved by the family that otherwise would have went to big pharma.

Nahh... that's probably part of it. But in many cases, it's the family insisting that you "drag it out". I remember at NY Hospital, this guy (in the next room) was VERY sick (AIDS) - he was at end of life. Had 105+ fever they could not get down. He was laying on a bed of ice, and the nurse was pouring ice water over him - all at the insistence of his sister. I remember thinking how could she torture her brother so mu…

There was an article recently agreeing with this point--that a mix of fear, selfishness, and guilt imposed by family and friends motivates many to "keep fighting," when they had previously and privately (away from loved ones) expressed their wish to die.

IIRC, the doctor in the article discussed how awful she felt at witnessing and being part of these prolonged treatments.

Can't find it now, but this seems to be a topic with a long history on NYT:

https://www.google.com/#q=site:nytimes.com+doctor+prolong+li...

Also:

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/09/06/when-its-the...

Re: I wrote a small piece on planned death

#66

Post by DasIch »

MacsHeadroom wrote: post #39
DasIch wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would the amount of time we consciously remember something, and this alone, define it's value?

Can you suggest a more interesting definition of value than "lasting impact on conscious experience"?

I don't think I can come up with a good definition that I would be perfectly happy with.

I do believe however that everything you experience will to some degree have an impact on you, even if you don't necessarily form memories around them and are able to recall these experiences.

Also especially with grief it seems important to share the emotions we have, so that we can understand our own emotions better and process them. It seems to me that precisely when we achieve that goal of processing grief the lasting impact is going to be less than it would be otherwise. That doesn't make the contributions and experiences that help process that grief any less valuable.

Re: I wrote a small piece on planned death

#67

Post by danielweber »

disposeofnick9 wrote: post #20

I've seen too many people get unnecessary, life-quality-killing butcherous surgeries and read the evidence confirming most end-of-life surgeries rarely have useful benefit. If you're going to check out, go with dignity and don't put your family / self through extended suffering. If you have to go in an unprogressive country, nitrogen itself leaves no evidence and paraphernalia is minimal and can be removed. Also, ple…

My mother was an RN nurse and saw way way too much of that. My parents have made her wishes very clear to the rest of the family.

Re: I wrote a small piece on planned death

#68

Post by loup-vaillant »

mafribe wrote: post #51
loup-vaillant wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the USSR was created explicitly with the end-goal of leading to a communist society […] I'm not sure that's true. Granted, it was ostensibly, outwardly created for that purpose. But I'm not sure that was the actual intent of those who lead that charge. My History is quite dusty, so I wonder what exactly brought about the dictatorships you mentioned. Besides, it wouldn't be the first time a revolution lead to (near)…

the actual intent We cannot look into people's head. We have to take into account what they say they do. Yes, we can question to what extent they were telling the truth, possibly even to themselves. wouldn't be the first time That's why revolutionary political movements continue having a bad name.

> We cannot look into people's head. We have to take into account what they say they do.

The latter often gives a pretty good insight about the former. The fact that USSR became a dictatorship so quickly makes the leaders of the movement look pretty bad.

Re: I wrote a small piece on planned death

#69

Post by brashrat »

jonathankoren wrote: post #16
pieter_mj wrote: post #12

I recently witnessed my uncle's euthanasia. There's a few things to consider and discuss with your leifarts (as the euthanasia assisting doctor is called in Belgium) : - death is instantanious (within 15-30 seconds of administration of penthotal) - often a sedative is given. Dormicum can lead to loud snoring so you should discuss with your doctor necessity/alternative

And yet in the US you're pretty much stuck with refusal of treatment which inevitably means dying slowly of dehydration. The outcome is the same and everyone knows it. After all, that's the point. It's just needlessly barbaric. We don't even treat animals that way.

That's not actually true in practice in the US: the morphine dosage used to treat pain for advanced cancers is given knowing full well it's a fatal dose. That it hastens death in addition to numbing the pain is something not much talked about outside the medical profession, but that is what is going on.

Re: I wrote a small piece on planned death

#70

Post by hkmurakami »

notjosh wrote: post #13
buro9 wrote: post #3

I've chatted with friends about my desires should I get a cancer that is more likely to kill and not be treatable, to refuse chemo, and to live what remains of my life qualitatively rather than quantitatively. I would plan how best to handle my death, and aim to enjoy every moment before a quick and severe pain takes over and does the job. Some have said this is a selfish viewpoint, that I should stay around longer f…

As a cancer survivor, I feel so conflicted about this. On one hand, I can completely understand where you're coming from. But on the other hand, I think seeing things in such black and white terms is pretty shortsighted. When there's a terminal prognosis, many/most doctors will offer an array of treatments and therapies to help manage symptoms without trying to make you feel worse. There are several middle-grounds th…

>There are several middle-grounds that can help extend life without prolonging it.

This is a beautiful choice of words that sent a chill down my spine just now.

Thanks for taking the time to pick out these particular words.

Post reply on HN