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WhatsApp is back online in Brazil

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Re: WhatsApp is back online in Brazil

#101

Post by educar »

visarga wrote: post #91
educar wrote: post #16

I hope the govt sees the reliance on this service and does something positive about it (for example, build their own or tie up with some company). Such massive dependence on a company with no contracts is going to end up in a mess later.

On the other hand, using a government issued instant messenger seems even more dangerous. I think Brazilians have more to fear from their own government than foreign governments.

Well, fear of government and police seems to be some hip thing amongst some HN commenters. This doesn't make sense and shakes the whole foundation of democracy.

Do we really have democratic nations that would rather rely on some corporation than the government? Is brazil such a nation. That is semi-alarming to me.

Re: WhatsApp is back online in Brazil

#102

Post by nihonde »

PauloManrique wrote: post #82
nihonde wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guarantee you that there is a good reason WhatsApp doesn't have a presence in Brazil and doesn't show its face in their courts. I have no inside knowledge, but I'm assuming it's because legal presence will give the Brazilian government even more leverage to coerce them to dubious ends, expose them to more liability, etc. I do know that Brazil has a history of corruption and tragically stupid foreign trade policies.

It's not the government, it's the justice. We are a republic. And we have laws. Ignoring a court order is illegal here (and I think it's illegal on most civilized countries). The problem is the company ignoring the orders. All they have to do is explain to the judge why they can't follow that order. And they refuse to do so.

Sounds a lot like the people who said "All Apple has to do is unlock one phone". Again, I'm no expert in Brazil, but I suspect that creating a legal presence in the country (e.g., by answering/defending the claim) gives the government too much leverage.

Re: WhatsApp is back online in Brazil

#103

Post by chrischen »

twoarray wrote: post #74
lucb1e wrote: post #46

> the idea that everyone in Brazil can be denied the freedom to communicate the way they want is very scary in a democracy Says the person (in name of the company, I assume) whose company blocks things they don't "like", such as messages containing telegram.org or telegram.me[1]. Now Facebook is not a democracy and they can block and censor pretty much any message they like, but now they go on to tell Brazil how it s…

Mark Zuckerberg "urged" Brazilians to tell Congress to "ban bans of online services" in the name of democracy. Am I an irrational nationalist for believing he shouldn't get into the politics of any country (especially outside of the US)? Last time someone tried to help us (Brazilians), we got a military dictatorship.

Oh but this isn't even the first time.

See this: http://www.theverge.com/2015/8/5/9099897/facebook-india-inte...

Facebook put up a banner for Indian users to try to influence the passing of a law to allow Facebook to break net neutrality in India.

Acts like these aren't limited to communications companies though. American multinationals have a tendency to exploit poor underdeveloped countries, like Papua New Guinea, and countless African countries.

It's part of the reason why China takes a highly protectionist stance especially with regards to foreign internet companies.

Re: WhatsApp is back online in Brazil

#104

Post by kbart »

awqrre wrote: post #86
hoorayimhelping wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a huge difference between "the government of Brazil denying everyone the freedom to communicate the way they want" and "facebook not auto-linking to a competitor's site in a chat program." You're comparing a government making communication through a specific (and popular) channel illegal, and a company not providing a link to a website as they send your message to your recipient. I know Hacker News enjoys ge…

Facebook does much more then that... they also hide information by using their "smart" sorting algo of stories/posts, for example.

Why can't you sort news by "newest first" then?

Re: WhatsApp is back online in Brazil

#105

Post by thirdsun »

ma2rten wrote: post #27
antisthenes wrote: post #13

Out of curiosity, what did Brazil use before WhatsApp existed? It seems strange to me that 1 app can capture such an overwhelming majority, because it's just a client, of which there have always been dozens if not hundreds.

It's not surprising to me that there is only one app used by the majority of people. That is called the network effect. But why is it WhatsApp? It's very frictionless. WhatsApp is a drop-in replacement for SMS. You don't make an account. You just download the app, import your phonebook and start messaging people who are also on WhatsApp. It's SMS except it's free, not more not less. My parents (not from Brazil) are o…

Similar situation here in Germany. Everyone and their mother uses Whatsapp. Most tech people underestimate the importance of not having to create an account or manage friends/contacts. Your phone number and your existing contacts is all it takes to set you up on Whatsapp, which is a low enough barrier to welcome users that usually avoid scary things like creating an account.

Re: WhatsApp is back online in Brazil

#106

Post by EuAndreh »

aylons wrote: post #68
bikamonki wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do businesses manage to communicate with clients through their zaps when there isn't an official API nor a CRM oriented Whatsapp client. Also, aren't they breaking the SLA? Just curious...

Mostly small business literally typing on their phones. Really bizarre.

It's funny to watch it, actually.

A company gives you their card information and there are a few things on it: the website URL, maybe an email, the address and a phone number, with the WhatsApp icon on the side!

When there are two numbers, they put the WhatsApp icon in one of them. They literally put another company's logo in their own contact info, because of how WhatsApp is so widespread!

Re: WhatsApp is back online in Brazil

#107

Post by reitanqild »

hoorayimhelping wrote: post #62
lucb1e wrote: post #46

> the idea that everyone in Brazil can be denied the freedom to communicate the way they want is very scary in a democracy Says the person (in name of the company, I assume) whose company blocks things they don't "like", such as messages containing telegram.org or telegram.me[1]. Now Facebook is not a democracy and they can block and censor pretty much any message they like, but now they go on to tell Brazil how it s…

There is a huge difference between "the government of Brazil denying everyone the freedom to communicate the way they want" and "facebook not auto-linking to a competitor's site in a chat program." You're comparing a government making communication through a specific (and popular) channel illegal, and a company not providing a link to a website as they send your message to your recipient. I know Hacker News enjoys ge…

Different different but same.

Countries generally can ban certain forms of communication. To contrieve a couple of examples you can have freedom of speak and still not be allowed to shout outdoors at night in the middle of residential neighborhoods. Or send smoke signals there.

And Facebook don't have to prioritise ads from competitors (I think).

That said, banning certain, non-harmful links in user-to-user communication or a whole class of non-disturbing communication comes off as extremely bad form to be.

So, IMO pointing out Facebooks hypocrisy is well justified and doesn't mean we agree with Brazil.

Re: WhatsApp is back online in Brazil

#108

Post by EuAndreh »

educar wrote: post #100
ptaipale wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not understand this approach. A market solution works and is popular, so the government should step in and try to develop something better with "contracts"?

It's just a form of standardization by the government in terms of the technical protocol. Just like EU has some with OOXML and ODF. This ensures that other players can come in and build alternative clients. Without regulations, it's going to be a nation relying on a company. I don't think that is good.

Many people in fact rely on WhatsApp. But that's not like they own the only road available.

If for some reason WhatsApp suddenly vanished, people would switch to the competitors, like Telegram, Messenger, Viber, etc.

There would be chaos during the change, but that's just because the change happens suddenly. If it happens slowly (if the government continues to block WhatsApp, people will rely on an alternative), then I see no harm.

Re: WhatsApp is back online in Brazil

#109

Post by aw3c2 »

walrus01 wrote: post #35
Aelinsaar wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that one way or another, WhatsApp isn't foiling the NSA if the NSA doesn't feel like being foiled. Then again, they may realize what most of us do, which is that WhatsApp is not exactly a terrorist hotbed.

NSA will simply pwn the endpoint devices of whoever they're really interested in.

And that would be fine. If they have reasonable proof that someone is bad enough to allow this, by all means pwn the targeted hell out of their devices.

Re: WhatsApp is back online in Brazil

#110

Post by zyx321 »

hoorayimhelping wrote: post #62
lucb1e wrote: post #46

> the idea that everyone in Brazil can be denied the freedom to communicate the way they want is very scary in a democracy Says the person (in name of the company, I assume) whose company blocks things they don't "like", such as messages containing telegram.org or telegram.me[1]. Now Facebook is not a democracy and they can block and censor pretty much any message they like, but now they go on to tell Brazil how it s…

There is a huge difference between "the government of Brazil denying everyone the freedom to communicate the way they want" and "facebook not auto-linking to a competitor's site in a chat program." You're comparing a government making communication through a specific (and popular) channel illegal, and a company not providing a link to a website as they send your message to your recipient. I know Hacker News enjoys ge…

For an apple to apple comparison, how about last year when Facebook promised to help Germany censor any criticism of their immigration policy under the guise of 'stopping Hate Speech'?

Facebook aren't taking a stance against censorship here. They are taking the same stance they always did: Pro-Facebook.

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