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The price of solar power just fell 50% in 16 months

electrek.co

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Re: The price of solar power just fell 50% in 16 months

#131

The aggressiveness of the price drops on solar is pretty amazing. I just lost one of the inverters on my grid-tie system after it had run trouble free for 13 years. So we're looking at the first "major" repair to the system I installed in 2003. And in 2003 my 5.2kW of panels on my roof cost $38,000 before subsidies and $19,000 after. 28 panels, two 2.5kW inverters, net about 4.2kW of generation. I priced out replacin…

How long until you start seeing a return on investment? Right now my electricity bill for my home is ~100 a month in Texas. I would need to keep the same panels without maintenance fees for 33.33 years by your price point of 40k

ROI can only be one factor. The other is that you are suddenly using clean energy. Doesn't this make you feel better?

Re: The price of solar power just fell 50% in 16 months

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How long until you start seeing a return on investment? Right now my electricity bill for my home is ~100 a month in Texas. I would need to keep the same panels without maintenance fees for 33.33 years by your price point of 40k

You can also sell electricity generated by your panels back to the grid.

Effectiveness of this varies by state or region. For instance, when I was in the Bay Area 10 years ago and looked into this, PG&E would let your electricity bill get to 0, but wouldn't let you go into rebate territory. They just wouldn't pay you for the additional electricity generated. I think other states/utilities have different options.

Most solar quotes take this into consideration, and quote you for enough solar to get into the minimum bill for your region (most utilities have a few hundred Kwh you can use per month at an obscenely low rate, and then it ramps up from there--solar is quoted so that you'll always stay within that cheapest range.)

For my current house in Austin, I'm still interested in solar, but it was both more cost-effective and had a shorter payback time to re-insulate to R36 in the attic and redo our horrible system (which had no ducts at all--agh, stupid 1956 house) than it was to do solar at the time.

Re: The price of solar power just fell 50% in 16 months

#133

This might seem like a weird thing to complain about, but am I the only person who is sick to death of headlines of the form "X just did Y"? It's the "just" I object to. It seems to be some sort of trend over the last couple of years. I think it's to make it seem more dramatic or something. It just happened! My god! In this case it is especially ridiculous, since the article describes something that happened over the…

Is "just" synonymous with "recently?" I wouldn't object to that adjective being in a headline.

Re: The price of solar power just fell 50% in 16 months

#134

This might seem like a weird thing to complain about, but am I the only person who is sick to death of headlines of the form "X just did Y"? It's the "just" I object to. It seems to be some sort of trend over the last couple of years. I think it's to make it seem more dramatic or something. It just happened! My god! In this case it is especially ridiculous, since the article describes something that happened over the…

Oh good, we can whine about this instead of talking about the issue at hand. This is HN constantly now, the top comment is some nitpick more or less totally unrelated to the topic.

Isn't that how conversations work though? At least, I know most of mine work that way. Oh, hey! That reminds me of something sort of related...

Re: The price of solar power just fell 50% in 16 months

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How long until you start seeing a return on investment? Right now my electricity bill for my home is ~100 a month in Texas. I would need to keep the same panels without maintenance fees for 33.33 years by your price point of 40k

ROI can only be one factor. The other is that you are suddenly using clean energy. Doesn't this make you feel better?

The typical American median household income is $51k.

Spending $40,000 of that on "clean energy" so that they can "feel better" is well outside of the typical person's price range. Even $7000 would be cost-prohibitive, especially if they're paying or saving up for their kids.

A cold can of beer also makes you feel better. Its a hell of a lot cheaper too. The answer for the typical American is to wait for utility-scale to build Solar out for them.

When the city as a whole notices that solar is cheaper than running peaker plants or whatever, then the city / municipality can purchase an entire field of solar (AND the energy storage needed to make it useful) and give it out for the whole town.

And in the mean time, you can drink your beer on the porch while you wait for progress to be made.

Re: The price of solar power just fell 50% in 16 months

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How long until you start seeing a return on investment? Right now my electricity bill for my home is ~100 a month in Texas. I would need to keep the same panels without maintenance fees for 33.33 years by your price point of 40k

You can also sell electricity generated by your panels back to the grid.

Sadly, not in very many places. In most US states, for example, utilities have lobbied to get laws that don't allow residential customers to sell power back to them, at most net-metering agreements will allow you to get credits from any excess power your panels generate (which is how my utility handles mine - unfortunately, since I generate more than I use, I can't actually make use of those credits fully, and I'm giving away some power to the grid).

Re: The price of solar power just fell 50% in 16 months

#137

The availability of solar power at night or on cloudy days just improved 0% in 16 months. Saying that solar is okay because it's hooked up to the grid is not an answer, because that's just another instance of a reliable energy source (fossil fuels, nuclear, hydro) bailing out an unreliable one (solar, wind).

this is the same as the "electric cars are actually powered by coal!" argument. it seems like it ignores all side effects of an incremental improvement in pricing/availability of technology: proliferation of EVs leads to removal of internal-combustion cars (all point sources of pollution), in turn leading to lots of cars dependent on the grid for power, in turn leading to that cleaning up power plants instantly cleans up millions of cars.

by the same token, price reductions in solar power cost leads to battery storage systems (or other storage systems) being even more desirable and cost-competitive, in turn leading to them being installed in preference over other types of power plants.

Re: The price of solar power just fell 50% in 16 months

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How long until you start seeing a return on investment? Right now my electricity bill for my home is ~100 a month in Texas. I would need to keep the same panels without maintenance fees for 33.33 years by your price point of 40k

Payback of 6 years with the new cost, even for your low electric bill.

Unlikely. Solar Panels don't replace all of your electricity costs. Naturally, you'll still run your refrigerator at night, right?

And during the day, when you have peak-solar energy, you'll be at work and won't be taking advantage of it. You'll recoup some of the costs through net-metering, but you usually buy back at wholesale prices and not at retail prices.

Finally, I'd expect utility companies to change their pricing scheme in the near future to account for solar. They service your electrical wires for example, and you'll likely have to pay a certain amount of money for that. So while you're not buying "power" (or at least, as much power) as before, you'll still have the service cost of being hooked up to the grid.

Re: The price of solar power just fell 50% in 16 months

#139

The aggressiveness of the price drops on solar is pretty amazing. I just lost one of the inverters on my grid-tie system after it had run trouble free for 13 years. So we're looking at the first "major" repair to the system I installed in 2003. And in 2003 my 5.2kW of panels on my roof cost $38,000 before subsidies and $19,000 after. 28 panels, two 2.5kW inverters, net about 4.2kW of generation. I priced out replacin…

How long until you start seeing a return on investment? Right now my electricity bill for my home is ~100 a month in Texas. I would need to keep the same panels without maintenance fees for 33.33 years by your price point of 40k

That is a slightly more nuanced question than you might think.

First, I work from a baseline cost of $19K, even though the list price was closer to $40K I didn't pay that for the system so I use the actual cost in my calculations.

Second there is the point where the money you've saved is equal to the money you paid, we hit that point about 10 years in. And then, depending on the life of your system (which has "positive cashflow" at that point) determines your overall rate of return. The replacment inverter (which is actually going to replace both inverters) is $2K ("upgrade" pricing from the manufacturer) And as the inverter was failing our system was under performing (so not generating as much power). The question will be how much longer am I willing to run the panels. The warranty is 25 years, so in theory another 10 years but the manufacturer (Sharp) no longer makes them and cannot replace them under warranty (they can only offer to repay you to buy a panel from some other vendor with equivalent specs and size).

So from a money perspective, had I used the $19K and put it into an S&P 500 ETF in 2003, it would have doubled by now (SPX was 1,008 in 2003, its over 2,016 today). So "bad investment" comparatively. If the panels continue for an additional 8 years and PG&E's costs stay about the same then I'll have generated about $20K in value from them so that would pencil out to a ARR of about 3.5%. Initially I funded the panels with a refinance of the house loan and that was at 6% but that has since been refinanced even lower. However had it not been, at my original purchase I'd still be running a deficit trying to both pay back the house and generate cash from the solar.

Interestingly for me, with the $7K it would cost to re-implement that system today, and 4% mortgage rates, it would have a rate of return of closer to 14% (10% if you subtract 4% as the cost of capital for a mortgage refi) and pay for itself in a bit more than 3 years and have doubled the return in 6. The challenge is additional regulatory changes which get incorporated into new installations versus the regulation regime I operate under based on my 2003 install date. I wonder sometimes what the trigger is for resetting the project's origin date.

Re: The price of solar power just fell 50% in 16 months

#140

The aggressiveness of the price drops on solar is pretty amazing. I just lost one of the inverters on my grid-tie system after it had run trouble free for 13 years. So we're looking at the first "major" repair to the system I installed in 2003. And in 2003 my 5.2kW of panels on my roof cost $38,000 before subsidies and $19,000 after. 28 panels, two 2.5kW inverters, net about 4.2kW of generation. I priced out replacin…

Is this DIY, or installed? If it's not DIY, mind passing along who you're using? Inquiring TX minds would like to know!
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