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Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

bbc.com

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Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#221

Post by eplanit »

hartpuff wrote: post #64
kbart wrote: post #17

I'm interested, what test do they perform to check if a person in question was hungry?/s Still, it's a bad precedence imho, so according to such logic, a homeless person could also invade my home and sleep in my bed, because he can't afford his own.

I'm not seeing the same logic you are. If someone is hungry (or pretending to be), why would they want to break into your home and sleep in your bed, rather than steal food?

His logical construction is solid: If it's okay to steal food when hungry, then it's okay to steal shelter when homeless (right?). The construction demonstrates how such logic, when generalized even a little, reveals its absurdity.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#222

Post by coffeeisgood »

I have been homeless and hungry while working a manual labor job. I applied for SNAP and should have been able to get benefits within three days. But I was told I'm not homeless. I couldn't prove I was homeless. Shelters have certain hours as do the food kitchens and I worked during those hours. I asked many people for help and food, but they said no. So when I felt especially desperate I stole a granola that cost about $2. The safety nets, so that people don't have to go hungry failed me.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#223

Post by coldtea »

stronglikedan wrote: post #133

I'm apparently in the minority, but, after reading the article, I still maintain that there is never a reason to steal from your fellow man. The potential for abuse due to hunger being subjective notwithstanding, there are social programs in place to accommodate the needy. Do they not have these programs in Italy? I am a very compassionate, empathetic (to a fault) person, but I just don't see the justification for th…

>I'm apparently in the minority, but, after reading the article, I still maintain that there is never a reason to steal from your fellow man

So, never been homeless, poor and hungry, I presume?

Here's some Brecht for you:

You gentlemen who think you have a mission To purge us of the seven deadly sins Should first sort out the basic food position Then start your preaching, that's where it begins

You lot, who preach restraint and watch your waist as well Should learn, for once, the way the world is run However much you twist, or whatever lies that you tell Food is the first thing, morals follow on

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#224

Post by VLM »

celticninja wrote: post #5

Seems reasonable. Not like he was nicking razor blades and booze just some necessities. Shame it had to go so far but hopefully it will prevent similar court action or arrests in future.

There are four slippery slope arguments

1) Originally the law exists so if you cut your finger you won't go to jail for "stealing" a bandaid from the first aid cabinet or other weird trivialities. I had a bad reaction to some taco bell and "stole" an entire roll of toilet paper in the bathroom by flushing it. For unusual situations not as a way of life to eat three meals a day.

2) Another intent is very short term survival. So if you are about to collapse in a low blood sugar diabetic coma, if you realize it and immediately slam a corn syrup soda, even if you can't pay for the soda its not a crime, because the overall cost to society of a collapsed or dead person in the aisle enormously exceeds the cost of a mere can of soda. But this dude paid for some needed food and snuck out with more food for later in his pocket. If his defense was he was feeling faint and ate it right there in the aisle as a sudden unpredictable (LOL) medical need, and said he was sorry but no wallet, that would be a realistic application of the law, but filling one's pockets for later use is pretty slippery slope.

3) The financial impact of the trial exceeds the cost of the crime by many magnitudes, and all the cost comes from the taxpayer. Thats fine when its something obscure like "policeman takes bicycle to chase down a criminal" or "earthquake hits store and customer steals bandages to save lives until the EMTs arrive". I stole a hundredth of a penny of water from the public water fountain because I was thirsty. However the financial impact of having to feed every homeless person is going to be a bit high and it makes no sense not to prosecute a common crime like food theft.

4) Proportionate punishment is an issue. So for me jail would be a ridiculous punishment for a couple pieces of food, but for a homeless dude, its like an all inclusive vacation.

Edited to add 5

5) Police punishment as non-judicial punishment. Sure the judge won't convict, but stealing a pack of chips means the cops will throw you in jail for a couple days. Much like political protesting is not illegal and you won't get a conviction for it, but the cops WILL let you cool your heels in jail for hours/days. Likewise maybe the appropriate legal level of punishment for stealing a cookie is sitting in jail and explaining yourself to a judge who lets you walk. Its not a crime you can be convicted of, but its not exactly government encouraged either. This is a likely outcome of the whole situation. There are parts of the country that "enforce" marijuana laws in a similar manner, or at least there used to be.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#225

Post by betenoire »

protomyth wrote: post #189
nowprovision wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bet you've been pretty privileged in grand scheme of things, university, regular jobs, maybe the lowest point has been backpacking etc... Parent have at least one car, yawn yawn yawn.. No one is stealing from you, they are stealing from a supermarket. Privileged people always seem to think in black and white, theft is theft never an excuse blah blah, quite often making the cliche mistake of associating morality wit…

I've not been privileged all my life. I have a dislike for fish because of some of things and situations we were in. It is never, ever ok to steal. Stealing from a supermarket is stealing from a person or people. Just because you cannot name who is affected doesn't mean it isn't people. It is black and white. The morality and legality are in alignment in this regard. This whole "shades of grey" leads to the blackness…

It's really not black and white at all. Stealing addresses the immediate present concerns. Government programs address the systematic problems and may not be able to help in time. This is somewhat like telling someone to wait til the next presidential election to vote to solve the problems they are having today. Makes sense when it's not you, but until then you have needs.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#226

Post by draugadrotten »

orkoden wrote: post #95

As the bible says http://www.bibleserver.com/text/ESV/Deuteronomy23%2C25 > If you go into your neighbor’s vineyard, you may eat your fill of grapes, as many as you wish, but you shall not put any in your bag. 25 If you go into your neighbor’s standing grain, you may pluck the ears with your hand, but you shall not put a sickle to your neighbor’s standing grain. Stealing food is okay sometimes. There's even a word in…

"For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat."" -- 2 Thessalonians 3:10

http://biblehub.com/2_thessalonians/3-10.htm

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#227

Post by Udik »

jemfinch wrote: post #200
stronglikedan wrote: post #133

I'm apparently in the minority, but, after reading the article, I still maintain that there is never a reason to steal from your fellow man. The potential for abuse due to hunger being subjective notwithstanding, there are social programs in place to accommodate the needy. Do they not have these programs in Italy? I am a very compassionate, empathetic (to a fault) person, but I just don't see the justification for th…

> I'm apparently in the minority, but, after reading the article, I still maintain that there is never a reason to steal from your fellow man. The Catholic Church would agree: stealing is intrinsically evil, and thus wrong always and everywhere. The way they handle situations like this is by defining "stealing when starving" as "not stealing at all, but reappropriating things according to God's design for them." They…

>The Catholic Church would agree

Quite the opposite, I'd say. Italy is a catholic country, and it is, I think, common opinion that the very forgiving Italian attitude is due to it. Protestantism and Calvinism in particular are much more strict in considering everybody responsible for their actions. Catholics can always go the the nearest priest, confess their sins and be immediately absolved from them. They don't have to deal with their conscience.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#228

Post by dragonwriter »

VLM wrote: post #211
School-Cotton wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see. There is no such rule in the U.S., although a lot of people mistakenly assume there is one. So I thought you might just be mistaken. I'm not sure whether the law in Italy is more similar to the U.S., or to Finland.

"There is no such rule in the U.S." Careful with online lawyering, its illegal not to bake a marriage cake for a gay couple, to cite a recent famous example.

That's not a counterexample. That's an example of the short and defined list of prohibited axes of discrimination (the specific law at issue included sexual orientation as an enumerated category protected) discussed upthread in the US and contrasted with the Finnish rule against discrimination on any broad category. So, its not an example of the US having a rule like the Finnish open-ended rule.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#229

Post by vidarh »

protomyth wrote: post #219
vidarh wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is black and white That you believe this makes it absolutely impossible for me to think you're not in a privileged position. > The whole point of government social programs is to provide for survival. There are organizations that provide and places to go. Great when you know where to go, and they work as they should. They are not perfect. And people are not perfect. Especially not when starving.

> That you believe this makes it absolutely impossible for me to think you're not in a privileged position. Believe what you want, but I sure as hell didn't grow up in a privileged position. > Great when you know where to go, and they work as they should. They are not perfect. And people are not perfect. Especially not when starving. Churches will give food, its part of many faiths. Stealing is wrong, and brings mise…

> Believe what you want, but I sure as hell didn't grow up in a privileged position.

I think the disconnect there is that we appear to have very different ideas of what is required to be privileged.

Have you ever starved? (And going hungry is not starvation).

> Churches will give food, its part of many faiths.

Again, have you ever starved, and tried to think clearly enough to find someone willing to give you food?

> People will help others, but taking is never right because of the chain of pain you unleash in the world.

If the choices is theft of necessities or starvation, I would always consider theft morally acceptable, because the pain involved is magnitudes apart from the pain caused by petty theft.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#230

Post by ergo14 »

luso_brazilian wrote: post #164
stronglikedan wrote: post #133

I'm apparently in the minority, but, after reading the article, I still maintain that there is never a reason to steal from your fellow man. The potential for abuse due to hunger being subjective notwithstanding, there are social programs in place to accommodate the needy. Do they not have these programs in Italy? I am a very compassionate, empathetic (to a fault) person, but I just don't see the justification for th…

Some context from the article: > Judges overturned a theft conviction against Roman Ostriakov after he stole cheese and sausages worth €4.07 (£3; $4.50) from a supermarket. > Mr Ostriakov, a homeless man of Ukrainian background, had taken the food "in the face of the immediate and essential need for nourishment", the court of cassation decided. > Therefore it was not a crime, it said. (...) > In 2015, Mr Ostriakov wa…

That makes no sense for me.

It IS a crime, however one that court could rule to not punish the convicted. At least that is how it would probably work in my country.

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