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WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

theintercept.com

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Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#581

Post by tremon »

simonh wrote: post #563
Freak_NL wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huge international US-based companies tend to comply with EU laws just fine (or at least participate in the judicial process) if they are doing business there. Whatsapp can choose to assign resources to this issue, or it can ignore it and let it solve itself. If Whatsapp thinks that Brazil is an interesting market for whatever it is selling (what are they selling?) or if it is good for PR then they may choose to seek…

> Huge international US-based companies tend to comply with EU laws just fine When they are operating their business within the EU, yes. For example US companies operating servers in the EU must comply with EU data protection laws regarding information on those servers. This situation is analogous. WhatsApp's servers are in the US so US law applies. If the servers were in the EU then EU law would apply, not Brazilian…

US companies operating servers in the EU must comply with EU data protection laws regarding information on those servers.

More accurately, US companies processing personal data of EU citizens must comply with EU data protection laws. It just so happens that locating the servers in the EU is among the easiest ways to comply with that.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#582

Post by Null-Set »

throwaway_xx9 wrote: post #224
robbiemitchell wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if a judge demanded a telco hand over an audio recording of any specific conversation, they must comply -- even though calls are not recorded and stored? If a judge demanded the postal service hand over an image of every envelope processed, it must comply -- even though no such images exist? Where does it end?

Actually, in the USA, USPS records an image of the front and back of all letters. It's illegal to open the envelope, but hey - who knows?

Couldn't an image of a letter with a thin envelope be used to see the contents?

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#583

Post by tremon »

Lxr wrote: post #464
alias240 wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless they are covertly decrypting them on the fly using a master key.

Shouldn't that be impossible by definition?

I think it would be possible to include additional data in the E2E handshake that would allow a third party to extract the session key.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#584

Post by lanna »

lanna wrote: post #375
coliveira wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only people that say there is no coup going on are people supporting the coup. Please get informed about this discussion.

A Dilma deveria ter sido presa em flagrante por obstrucao de justica ao nomear Lula ministro as vesperas da prisao preventiva dele ser decretada.

http://veja.abril.com.br/blog/reinaldo/geral/finalmente-jano...

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#585

Post by sangnoir »

wslh wrote: post #186
sangnoir wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Privacy is at stake here Are you arguing against the use of warrants in police investigations?

I am against the use of warrants when there is nothing to search...

> I am against the use of warrants when there is nothing to search...

End to end encrypting doesn't magically cause metadata to disappear. IP addresses, the times messages were sent and received are still useful to law enforcement. In this instance, the court want the IP address of the accused so they can follow up with the ISP.

I prefer warrants written out for specific individuals to dragnet surveillance.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#586

Post by sangnoir »

MajesticHobo wrote: post #183
sangnoir wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Privacy is at stake here Are you arguing against the use of warrants in police investigations?

WhatsApp is the most popular end-to-end encrypted chat app in the world. Shutting it down for 100 million people not suspected or charged with any crime is an incredibly disproportionate, privacy-thwarting response to not being able to access user data in one criminal investigation.

> Shutting it down for 100 million people not suspected or charged with any crime is an incredibly disproportionate, privacy-thwarting response to not being able to access user data in one criminal investigation.

What proportional recourse do you suggest when Whatsapp are effectively in contempt of court (in absentia)? In most jurisdictions, obstructing the course of justice usually has heavy penalties.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#587

Post by ex3ndr »

sschueller wrote: post #522
ex3ndr wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are working on it, right now servers are not connected together. We are planning to integrate with Matrix.org.

Any ETA on that? I would be huge.

Sorry, but not ETA yet :( If you know good scala developers that wish to join us to implement this then it will be faster.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#588

Post by simonh »

rmc wrote: post #565
simonh wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's absolutely nothing special in this case because WhatsApp happens to be operating on the internet. Suppose they were a mail order company based in Brazil but serving customers internationally by post. If a US judge issued a court order in the US requiring the company to hand over business records stored on paper in Barzil, he would have no jurisdiction whatsoever. Brazilian law protecting the privacy of inform…

> Suppose they were a mail order company based in Brazil but serving customers internationally by post. If a US judge issued a court order in the US requiring the company to hand over business records stored on paper in Barzil, he would have no jurisdiction whatsoever. Fair point. But to continue that analogy, the US judge is quite free to ban the commercial operation of that Brazilian company in the USA. Which is ex…

OK. So now you're banning a company for operating in your country, because they choose not to become criminals in their own jurisdiction. So why ban them for a day or two? What's that supposed to accomplish? Logically if this was the justification they would ban it permanently. Banning it temporarily is just playing spiteful games that isn't going to accomplish anything.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#589

Post by simonh »

markokrajnc wrote: post #580
simonh wrote: post #563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Huge international US-based companies tend to comply with EU laws just fine When they are operating their business within the EU, yes. For example US companies operating servers in the EU must comply with EU data protection laws regarding information on those servers. This situation is analogous. WhatsApp's servers are in the US so US law applies. If the servers were in the EU then EU law would apply, not Brazilian…

But by the US laws the US company has to share information information on those servers located in EU with US government if requested...

Which of course is bonkers. But that doesn't mean it's OK for a Brazilian judge to be similarly bonkers.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#590

Post by simonh »

tremon wrote: post #581
simonh wrote: post #563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Huge international US-based companies tend to comply with EU laws just fine When they are operating their business within the EU, yes. For example US companies operating servers in the EU must comply with EU data protection laws regarding information on those servers. This situation is analogous. WhatsApp's servers are in the US so US law applies. If the servers were in the EU then EU law would apply, not Brazilian…

US companies operating servers in the EU must comply with EU data protection laws regarding information on those servers. More accurately, US companies processing personal data of EU citizens must comply with EU data protection laws. It just so happens that locating the servers in the EU is among the easiest ways to comply with that.

Right, because the personal information is being transmitted outside the EU. Even if it's from a browser in the EU to a server in the US, that still counts. It's still an activity taking place in the EU.

The Brazilian case isn't about data transmission though. WhatsApp isn't in breach of any rules about that. It's about court ordered access to records stored on an server in a specific geographic location - The USA. Now if the Brazilian government passed a law requiring WhatsApp to record all data on servers in Brazil that would at least be possible to comply with.

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