Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry • Hacker News Board

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#111

Post by elcapitan » Tue, May 03, 2016, 2:12 PM UTC

garyrob wrote: post #30

It's a little hard to understand how this ruling won't cause a certain degree of chaos. Can any hungry, homeless person now steal food from any store in Italy without repercussion? Certainly as a matter of compassion, this ruling can be argued as being reasonable, but how can it work as a practical matter?

I think there is a fundamental difference between different law systems - I'm assuming Italy is roman-style civil law, while you are probably expecting Anglo-Saxon style common law. This means that that case is not setting a precedent, it is merely ruling that the particular case is not going to be penalized.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#112

Post by J-dawg » Tue, May 03, 2016, 2:13 PM UTC

garyrob wrote: post #30

It's a little hard to understand how this ruling won't cause a certain degree of chaos. Can any hungry, homeless person now steal food from any store in Italy without repercussion? Certainly as a matter of compassion, this ruling can be argued as being reasonable, but how can it work as a practical matter?

It could work without causing chaos. We already accept that some special circumstances can make you innocent of a crime (e.g. killing in self-defence).

But if you stab someone in self-defence you can still expect to be arrested and possibly put on trial. The onus is on you to prove you did it in self-defence.

Surely this could be treated the same? It doesn't mean that stealing food has been decriminalised. You'll still be arrested if caught, and you have to prove you were truly desperate.

The risk of this approach, I fear, is that it could be exploited by clever lawyers as a loophole for people who aren't really all that poor. The truly poor won't be able to afford a lawyer.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#113

Post by weinzierl » Tue, May 03, 2016, 2:13 PM UTC

Until 1975 German law had a Mundraub [1] (theft for the mouth) clause (§ 248a Abs. 2 StGB a.F.). It was concerned with the theft of small amounts of food for immediate consumption, like eating an apple from your neighbor's garden.

[1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mundraub

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#114

Post by takno » Tue, May 03, 2016, 2:13 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #65

iamgopal wrote: post #33

Reminds me of La miserables.

Les Misérables Edit: With appreciation to lorenzhs

Maybe OP was talking about a new show in development. It possibly follows the lives of the lawyers from LA Law who, having fallen on hard times, are forced to steal bread and break spontaneously into song to survive.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#115

Post by [deleted] » Tue, May 03, 2016, 2:13 PM UTC

delecti wrote: post #46

garyrob wrote: post #30

It's a little hard to understand how this ruling won't cause a certain degree of chaos. Can any hungry, homeless person now steal food from any store in Italy without repercussion? Certainly as a matter of compassion, this ruling can be argued as being reasonable, but how can it work as a practical matter?

Also, surely the store from which he stole is still victimized by the theft. Is every supermarket now de facto required to set up small food pantries for the poor to protect themselves from theft?

[deleted]

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#116

Post by _Adam » Tue, May 03, 2016, 2:13 PM UTC

nkrisc wrote: post #31

A reasonable stance of compassion. It's a reprieve from the more common misanthropic Randian attitudes towards the poor. Be nice to the poor, there are so many things beyond our control that could make any of us poor tomorrow.

The only "Randian attitude" towards the poor is that no one should be forced to help them. This case is mandating that shops help poor people regardless of whether or not they want. It's a clear violation of property rights.

Helping hungry people is a fine thing to do, as long as it's optional.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#117

Post by tveita » Tue, May 03, 2016, 2:13 PM UTC

delecti wrote: post #46

garyrob wrote: post #30

It's a little hard to understand how this ruling won't cause a certain degree of chaos. Can any hungry, homeless person now steal food from any store in Italy without repercussion? Certainly as a matter of compassion, this ruling can be argued as being reasonable, but how can it work as a practical matter?

Also, surely the store from which he stole is still victimized by the theft. Is every supermarket now de facto required to set up small food pantries for the poor to protect themselves from theft?

Stores in an area could work together to supply a food bank?

Or even petition the government to set one up paid by their taxes.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#118

Post by DanBC » Tue, May 03, 2016, 2:14 PM UTC

kome wrote: post #84

In other news, sky is blue and water is wet. From the Italian criminal code: Criminal Code, article 54 – State of necessity: “A person is not punishable for having committed an act that he was forced to do in order to save himself or others from an existing risk of severe harm, a risk not voluntarily caused by him, nor otherwise avoidable, always provided that the act is proportional to the risk”.

But this is from the BBC, and in Britain we routinely prosecute (sometimes privately) people who shoplift food.

There are cases of homeless people who stole a pint of milk from a doorstep, and who left some money, being prosecuted for theft.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#119

Post by KKKKkkkk1 » Tue, May 03, 2016, 2:14 PM UTC

saosebastiao wrote: post #97

If you're gonna force business owners to give to the poor, why not do it through an established and equitable mechanism like taxation/redistribution, instead of subjecting select types of business owners to the whims of a mostly subjective claim? Why force the burden on a bakery but not a tailor or a chocolatier? I can't help but be concerned about this growing trend of governments slowly pushing off the burden of ge…

Actually, when you think of it, maybe it's better to legalize stealing than establishing a government agency in charge of equitable redistribution. I would imagine stealing would work more efficiently and more fairly. (You see a problem and you say: Hey, let's establish a government agency to solve that problem. Now you have two problems.)

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#120

Post by drzaiusapelord » Tue, May 03, 2016, 2:14 PM UTC

peterwwillis wrote: post #56

garyrob wrote: post #30

It's a little hard to understand how this ruling won't cause a certain degree of chaos. Can any hungry, homeless person now steal food from any store in Italy without repercussion? Certainly as a matter of compassion, this ruling can be argued as being reasonable, but how can it work as a practical matter?

No, it's just no longer a crime - IF you were hungry. You'll still get arrested and put through a lengthy trial process if you're caught stealing food. The shop can decide to let the thief have the food, or take it away from them, or call the cops. Theft is commonplace in markets and supermarkets. It's calculated into the cost of doing business. Back when I was a teenager working in a supermarket, one store claimed 1…

>You'll still get arrested and put through a lengthy trial process if you're caught stealing food.

Lets say, I'm an Italian businessman. I have a vending machine that costs 5,000 euros. Your feel good ruling told all the drug addicts they could smash it for the snacks inside. You arrest them and whether or not you convict them doesn't matter to me because I'm out 5,000 euros now and the government isn't going to reimburse me. I can't sue them because they have no assets.

So yes, there are social consequences here that are not address by the court system.