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WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

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Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#541

Post by kuschku »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #394
Grollicus wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might do this and then you get convicted in absentia, Saudi Arabia will send a request for extradiction, your country will say no, done. Except: better not travel to Saudi Arabia or any other country that will extradict. Also Saudi Arabia will propably ban your App, which is what is happening in Brasil.

> You might do this and then you get convicted in absentia, Saudi Arabia will send a request for extradiction, your country will say no, done. Except: better not travel to Saudi Arabia or any other country that will extradict. And that is the problem. You can't actually expect people to hire lawyers from 108 different countries to see if their app is legal in each of them just because they're going to distribute it o…

Selling apps is like selling any other product.

I can’t sell medical marihuana in most states of the US – and I don’t go and try, and then complain about getting arrested.

Instead, if I wanted to start a business doing that, I’d check out where it would be legal, and in which ways, and sell my product in those markets.

Why do you assume you can sell your product in markets without having checked the legality, and then complain when they ban your product because it violates the local law?

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#542

Post by kuschku »

Retra wrote: post #445
calbear81 wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if you're not willing to do the legwork to see if your app is following the letter of the law in those countries, you may be subjected to being banned due to violation of said laws.

That's not really an argument. Go ahead and ban it. There's no reason anyone should preemptively ban themselves just because someone else wants them banned. It's a bit like saying "You should hang yourself, because if you don't, I'll hang you." The proper response is "get on with it then."

Selling apps is like selling any other product.

I can’t sell medical marihuana in most states of the US – and I don’t go and try, and then complain about getting arrested.

Instead, if I wanted to start a business doing that, I’d check out where it would be legal, and in which ways, and sell my product in those markets.

Why do you assume you can sell your product in markets without having checked the legality, and then complain when they ban your product because it violates the local law?

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#543

Post by white-flame »

rmc wrote: post #495
envy2 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There seem to be a few problems with this analysis. First, WhatsApp is a US company and has no presence in Brazil. Under many readings of US law (specifically, ECPA), US companies are in fact prohibited from complying with requests from foreign law enforcement for content, except in emergencies. Instead, foreign law enforcement must make a request for assistance to the US DoJ, which will then (eventually, and maybe)…

> WhatsApp is a US company and... I always feel like many large US tech companies want to have their cake and eat it. They want to be a global company, they want to have 2 billion users, and are valued at having that many users. But when it comes to laws, suddenly they operate under US law alone. I wouldn't mind if they ignored all national laws, and acted like a true global company. But I'm not from the USA (or Braz…

If it was a small company based out of Iceland, or South Africa, or Singapore, it would still be in the same legal situation. The company (assuming just a single incorporation presence) is under the laws of the country it's from, and Joe Random user from across the internet is internationally accessing it.

National law cannot enforce anything on organizations not within the national jurisdiction, without international cooperation. However, they can (attempt to) stop their own citizens from accessing the international service.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#544

Post by ThisIs_MyName »

patall wrote: post #504
nitrogen wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a digital native, I feel like an international Internet is more important than national sovereignty. That is, I don't think the interesting question is whether US or Brazilian law should apply, the question is how to ensure international access to international digital resources.

I may a.gree with that but still, just because you do not like a law you have to comply. You can try to change it but as long as it exists its law for everyone. You cannot say murder should be legal, therefore I am allowed to do it.

On the other hand, I believe that we have a duty to disobey laws that prevent communication. Civil disobedience is also much easier when you're outside their jurisdiction.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#545

Post by smoyer »

I'm going to guess that this isn't only affecting consumers. Governments and businesses gradually (sometimes informally) adopt tools their employees use outside work. Tools that are convenient, consistent and prevalent are especially valuable.

If this becomes the "new normal", I'd expect to see criminals launching more burglaries and terrorists launching more attacks during the service shut-downs. If you know your target is in a weakened state, you're going to take advantage of it.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#546

Post by thiagoperes »

soneca wrote: post #64

I'm here to defend the judge's ruling, a position very unpopular among all my friends here in Brazil. Brazilian law regarding regarding privacy of users of internet services is very recent and clear: if a judge order the company to share a specific user data, the company must comply. You can disagree with the law, but the law is there. Now, the judge ordered Whatsapp to share a particular user conversation (a suspect…

Well, this alone will not make WhatsApp comply with the law, specially if these conversations were encrypted.

Also, there also has to be a consideration for the 100 MILLION users that might depend on this service. Imagine companies that depend on this to communicate efficiently and businesses that rely on this platform to take orders etc.

If they disobey the law, it must have consequences, but not at the cost of hurting your own people.

Taking it to an extreme, would they also take down a bank website if they didn't comply with a similar request and stop people from withdrawing money? I don't think so.

This takedown will not help in the investigation in any ways. So it seems the justice system isn't working for their main customer: the people.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#547

Post by gambiting »

kuschku wrote: post #540
gambiting wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But....why not? As a person interested in selling my app, why would I not publish it in the largest number of markets available?

Selling apps is like selling any other product. I can’t sell medical marihuana in most states of the US – and I don’t go and try, and then complain about getting arrested. Instead, if I wanted to start a business doing that, I’d check out where it would be legal, and in which ways, and sell my product in those markets. Why do you assume you can sell your product in markets without having checked the legality, and the…

Hmmmm your example isn't exactly valid. If I was selling something on ebay out of EU, and you ordered something from me to US, I would almost definitely not get in trouble for sending it to you, unless it was an item which has export restrictions from my country. Or to go back to my example of Saudi Arabia - if someone from Saudi Arabia bought something from me I would definitely absolutely not bother to check if what I'm sending is legal in there. If it isn't, then customs will confiscate it and the person buying it will be in trouble, most likely.

My point was - is there any reason why I, as a developer, should not check "all countries" when publishing an app? If Saudi Arabia wants to ban my app later - let them, I literally don't care.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#549

Post by piyush_soni »

cyxxon wrote: post #524
piyush_soni wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Digressing from the actual discussion, Whatsapp now allows you to keep a backup of your chats and related media on your Google Drive and then recover it when you move to a new device. Probably applicable only for newer versions of Android (not sure about iOS).

You can backup to (and restore from) iCloud, but then again WhatsApp (the company) does not have the data then.

Yes, I didn't mean to say they have the data. That's why I said I'm digressing from the topic (realizing the parent commenter might find it useful).

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#550

Post by Freak_NL »

a3_nm wrote: post #222
krschultz wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your definition of 'closed'?

I cannot interact with WhatsApp users without registering an account with WhatsApp and running proprietary code published by WhatsApp. Compare with email, where I can email friends at whatever provider without registering with them or having to run their code.

Additionally, you can't even use WhatsApp without a mobile phone number, and effectively you need a smartphone with a supported mobile operating system of their choosing. That's pretty closed.
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