WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge • Hacker News Board

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#471

Post by empressplay » Tue, May 03, 2016, 5:46 AM UTC

envy2 wrote: post #158

soneca wrote: post #64

I'm here to defend the judge's ruling, a position very unpopular among all my friends here in Brazil. Brazilian law regarding regarding privacy of users of internet services is very recent and clear: if a judge order the company to share a specific user data, the company must comply. You can disagree with the law, but the law is there. Now, the judge ordered Whatsapp to share a particular user conversation (a suspect…

There seem to be a few problems with this analysis. First, WhatsApp is a US company and has no presence in Brazil. Under many readings of US law (specifically, ECPA), US companies are in fact prohibited from complying with requests from foreign law enforcement for content, except in emergencies. Instead, foreign law enforcement must make a request for assistance to the US DoJ, which will then (eventually, and maybe)…

If a US law makes it impossible for a US company to comply with laws in another country in which they operate, that other country has the right to prohibit said company from operating there.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#472

Post by mirimir » Tue, May 03, 2016, 5:47 AM UTC

Dolores12 wrote: post #466

mirimir wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it is Whatsapp's fault if they're that easy to block! Brazil is a pretty big user base. Maybe they ought to come up with a workaround?

You suggest to break the law and should be punished just for that.

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Love is the law, love under will." Aleister Crowley

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#473

Post by kawera » Tue, May 03, 2016, 5:47 AM UTC

kerkeslager wrote: post #463

boobsbr wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> he could change the laws of the universe with a stroke of his pen that's how the legislative and judiciary branches think here in Brazil, write the problems away with a law. it called 'canetada'.

> it called 'canetada'. It's wonderful to have a succinct word for a concept like that; I wish there were such a word in English. Do you have any background information about the origins and meaning of this word?

Caneta means pen in portuguese. Canetada, although not a dictionary word, means the act of swiftly using a pen to show "who is the boss" - signing an impromptu decree or order of questionable legitimacy for example.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#474

Post by marklgr » Tue, May 03, 2016, 5:49 AM UTC

Retra wrote: post #440

devishard wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First, WhatsApp is a US company and has no presence in Brazil. Under many readings of US law (specifically, ECPA), US companies are in fact prohibited from complying with requests from foreign law enforcement for content, except in emergencies. Instead, foreign law enforcement must make a request for assistance to the US DoJ, which will then (eventually, and maybe) process it and serve it on the US company. This is…

>In fact, it's kind of insensitive for foreigners to suggest that a judge of a sovereign nation must consider US law in his rulings. It's just as insensitive for a judge of a foreign nation to suggest that all foreigners must consider his rulings when making decisions under their own sovereign laws.

If a business wants to operate in a foreign country, it seems natural to me to follow the rules of that country; the fact that the business did not open an office in that country looks irrelevant--otherwise, do not open any office abroad and do what you want.

Incidentally, I wonder how the situation would be handled and what the opinion would be if some big foreign company operating in the US were shut down in the same way.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#475

Post by molmalo » Tue, May 03, 2016, 5:50 AM UTC

Retra wrote: post #440

devishard wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First, WhatsApp is a US company and has no presence in Brazil. Under many readings of US law (specifically, ECPA), US companies are in fact prohibited from complying with requests from foreign law enforcement for content, except in emergencies. Instead, foreign law enforcement must make a request for assistance to the US DoJ, which will then (eventually, and maybe) process it and serve it on the US company. This is…

>In fact, it's kind of insensitive for foreigners to suggest that a judge of a sovereign nation must consider US law in his rulings. It's just as insensitive for a judge of a foreign nation to suggest that all foreigners must consider his rulings when making decisions under their own sovereign laws.

Well, technically one could argue that it's not strange for a foreigner to comply with the judge's orders if they want their service to keep working in his country. They may refuse, sure, but there are consequences for that.

So, in this case, "all foreigners must consider his rulings", applies only for the those who wish to keep their service working in Brazil.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#476

Post by jeena » Tue, May 03, 2016, 5:50 AM UTC

I'm not saying the judge did the wrong thing but I think one could avoid this kind of problems by using decentralized services.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#477

Post by [deleted] » Tue, May 03, 2016, 5:54 AM UTC

joshvm wrote: post #166

envy2 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There seem to be a few problems with this analysis. First, WhatsApp is a US company and has no presence in Brazil. Under many readings of US law (specifically, ECPA), US companies are in fact prohibited from complying with requests from foreign law enforcement for content, except in emergencies. Instead, foreign law enforcement must make a request for assistance to the US DoJ, which will then (eventually, and maybe)…

I can believe them when they say they don't keep data. When I got a new phone (the old one broke), I was expecting my conversations to be in the cloud somewhere so that I could recover them. Nope, I lost everything that I hadn't backed up. I don't see what they can gain from storing masses of old chats and then not allowing users to download them onto new devices. If they kept chats to do analytics on, there's no rea…

[deleted]

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#478

Post by banach » Tue, May 03, 2016, 6:10 AM UTC

LXBWtEodYi2G wrote: post #84

banach wrote: post #31

Good. Now they can all switch to Signal.

Why should that be any different? Signal and WhatsApp are functionally equivalent from this perspective. Both are end-to-end encrypted and therefore targets, and both are dependent on centralized, blockable servers and therefore vulnerable.

1) If people were to switch, it would bring more people onto a platform that is not tied to Facebook, a company that loathes privacy.

2) Signal is free software, including the messaging server (https://github.com/WhisperSystems/TextSecure-Server). This makes it less sensitive to take-downs (anyone could set up an alternate server), and makes third-party security code audits possible.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#479

Post by kagamine » Tue, May 03, 2016, 6:14 AM UTC

erik14th wrote: post #260

soneca wrote: post #64

I'm here to defend the judge's ruling, a position very unpopular among all my friends here in Brazil. Brazilian law regarding regarding privacy of users of internet services is very recent and clear: if a judge order the company to share a specific user data, the company must comply. You can disagree with the law, but the law is there. Now, the judge ordered Whatsapp to share a particular user conversation (a suspect…

When it comes to decisions this big, I always assume there's more than meets the eye. You're probably aware of the statement Brazilian telcos made on the intent of charging according to bandwidth usage and it's public reaction. Which to me indicates that telcos are kinda desperate on trying to find new sources of revenue. And this happened not long after one big telco company acquired a big competitor. Add the fact t…

There are lots of apps that let you send free sms over wi-fi, including Cacao (not sure of spelling, I don't use it but my partner does, seems popular in Korea?) and also why would the sale of iPhones with FaceTime and Messages not be an even greater threat than WhatsApp to telecom revenue?

I don't doubt the telecom companies are trying to control their market, but I doubt they are behind some huge conspiracy. It is more likely that the govt/courts are trying to control the flow and availability of user's data and are in cahoots with the telecoms companies who have close ties to govt.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#480

Post by jessaustin » Tue, May 03, 2016, 6:21 AM UTC

CamperBob2 wrote: post #256

dongping wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As there are countries where laws cannot be changed, technological solutions can fix the problems once and for all. Even in "democratic" country, you would still have to fight the lobbyists, corporate controlled media and so on.

There's no such thing as a country whose laws can't be changed. Only countries where the people don't care enough to do what's necessary to change them.

Oh, now I understand North Korea's problems!