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WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

theintercept.com

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Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#451

Post by necessity »

maus42 wrote: post #412
necessity wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dystopian only in the mind of a sci-fi fan. In practice it's a free communication service that helped millions to connect. No one forced people to use WhatsApp like something from 1984, people chose it from the various alternatives. In fact, a lot of people prefer Telegram, and a lot use neither, preferring good old cellphone conversations. Oh wait, isn't that a closed protocol that dominates all offline communicatio…

GSM (assuming that's what is used in Brazil) isn't free of patents, but at least everyone could (in theory) start their own telecom company and compete with the another ones. And I assume in reality (even in Brazil) customer could switch from a telecom operator to another if they are not happy with the service provided by the first one. If I want to communicate to some another WhatsApp user, I need to use WhatsApp.

What does one thing have to do with another? If I want to communicate with you on HN I need a HN account. How is that dystopian or what does it have to do with protocols?

If you want to communicate with another person you can use Telegram or whatever you want.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#452

Post by ex3ndr »

julioneander wrote: post #372
ex3ndr wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some brazil users started to - Actor (actor.im) Disclaimer: CEO of Actor and Ex-Telegram employee.

That app looks really cool! I was looking at the Actor Developer Hub, there is a guide explaining how to install an Actor Server. Does that mean that Actor is decentralized? How does that work?

We are working on it, right now servers are not connected together. We are planning to integrate with Matrix.org.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#453

Post by escape_goat »

devishard wrote: post #435
envy2 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There seem to be a few problems with this analysis. First, WhatsApp is a US company and has no presence in Brazil. Under many readings of US law (specifically, ECPA), US companies are in fact prohibited from complying with requests from foreign law enforcement for content, except in emergencies. Instead, foreign law enforcement must make a request for assistance to the US DoJ, which will then (eventually, and maybe)…

> First, WhatsApp is a US company and has no presence in Brazil. Under many readings of US law (specifically, ECPA), US companies are in fact prohibited from complying with requests from foreign law enforcement for content, except in emergencies. Instead, foreign law enforcement must make a request for assistance to the US DoJ, which will then (eventually, and maybe) process it and serve it on the US company. This is…

> In fact, it's kind of insensitive for foreigners to suggest that a judge of a sovereign nation must consider US law in his rulings.

My apologies, but I think that if you re-read what was written, you will find that this was not suggested. The comment was written in response to one that came to the conclusion that this "was all [WhatsApp's] fault." It is suggesting that WhatsApp is not at fault, is probably strictly complying with US law, and cannot share the information in any case. At no point does it even come close to suggesting that the judge in the case should have "considered US law" in his rulings.

Moreover, I feel that your claim does not clearly differentiate between 'considering US law' as a material fact and 'considering US law' as a judicial precedent. You seem to be suggesting that someone arguing that US law ought to be held material to the case is somehow demanding that the Brazilian judiciary hold itself subservient to the US courts. You also seem to be suggesting that a Brazilian state judge has any business interpreting the law so as to "send a message" to the government of another nation, which is simply and patently untrue.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#454

Post by tomcorrigan »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #394
Grollicus wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might do this and then you get convicted in absentia, Saudi Arabia will send a request for extradiction, your country will say no, done. Except: better not travel to Saudi Arabia or any other country that will extradict. Also Saudi Arabia will propably ban your App, which is what is happening in Brasil.

> You might do this and then you get convicted in absentia, Saudi Arabia will send a request for extradiction, your country will say no, done. Except: better not travel to Saudi Arabia or any other country that will extradict. And that is the problem. You can't actually expect people to hire lawyers from 108 different countries to see if their app is legal in each of them just because they're going to distribute it o…

> You can't actually expect people to hire lawyers from 108 different countries

You could expect facebook, with their almost infinite resources to so.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#455

Post by f3llowtraveler »

habosa wrote: post #362
Grollicus wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany you get recompensation for that. Also one might argue if they don't like the laws they shouldn't access the market.

Not that I am a big fan of this particular law/result, but I want to highlight the second half of your sentence: "if they don't like the laws they shouldn't access the market" That is something the HN crowd does not seem to understand/respect. Most of us enjoy the personal protection of the law yet we want to whip up a webapp and have no laws apply to us.

As far as I understand, WhatsApp is not conducting any activities in Brazil.

There are people in Brazil who have downloaded the application, and those people are connecting OUT to WhatsApp, which is operating in America.

So all the Brazilian government can do, is BLOCK its own people from accessing WhatsApp through the Internet.

The question is, should the Brazilian government have the right to block websites that it doesn't want its people to be able to see?

Ultimately that's a problem for Brazilian domestic politics, and also a greater issue of human rights. After all, that's how we describe it when discussing the Great Firewall of China.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#456

Post by mirimir »

soneca wrote: post #64

I'm here to defend the judge's ruling, a position very unpopular among all my friends here in Brazil. Brazilian law regarding regarding privacy of users of internet services is very recent and clear: if a judge order the company to share a specific user data, the company must comply. You can disagree with the law, but the law is there. Now, the judge ordered Whatsapp to share a particular user conversation (a suspect…

Well, it is Whatsapp's fault if they're that easy to block! Brazil is a pretty big user base. Maybe they ought to come up with a workaround?

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#457

Post by hoppa_liza »

gcb0 wrote: post #398
frostymarvelous wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now, it's more of a benefit to phone manufacturers to pre-install whatsapp than it is to whatsapp itself. Same goes for the telcos. Offering free whatsapp and Facebook is a thing. And it's not because whatsapp had a "deal". It's because the telcos want more users. Developing countries eat that up. People explicitly want to see whatsapp support or they don't buy the phone and many terrible devices have been sold…

Source: 20+yrs on the online advertising industry. Nothing that lives of ads or telecomunication companies survive only by "serving the user". The telco only pre-install something on the device if: A. they are paid upfront, B. if they get a percentage of the ads. yeah, serving the user is good, but remember that you are talking about companies that charges for SMS. the day they have to rely on "pleasing the user" hel…

Does not including a popular app preinstalled increase sales?

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#458

Post by CydeWeys »

rbanffy wrote: post #448
CydeWeys wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Terrifyingly Brazil is probably on the no-go list for lots of Apple employees right now, like how the Middle East is in general for LGBT people.

Apple has offices and operates legally in Brazil and has done so for many decades. As far as I know, they aren't violating any local law.

I meant to say Facebook. No idea how I confused the two.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#460

Post by bobinator606 »

devishard wrote: post #435
envy2 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There seem to be a few problems with this analysis. First, WhatsApp is a US company and has no presence in Brazil. Under many readings of US law (specifically, ECPA), US companies are in fact prohibited from complying with requests from foreign law enforcement for content, except in emergencies. Instead, foreign law enforcement must make a request for assistance to the US DoJ, which will then (eventually, and maybe)…

> First, WhatsApp is a US company and has no presence in Brazil. Under many readings of US law (specifically, ECPA), US companies are in fact prohibited from complying with requests from foreign law enforcement for content, except in emergencies. Instead, foreign law enforcement must make a request for assistance to the US DoJ, which will then (eventually, and maybe) process it and serve it on the US company. This is…

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