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WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

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Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#361

Post by MrMullen »

Spivak wrote: post #249
MrMullen wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatapp's uses the Signal Protocol Java, which is open source. https://www.whatsapp.com/security/WhatsApp-Security-Whitepap... https://github.com/WhisperSystems/libsignal-protocol-java

Oh ffs, here we go again. Yes, the signal protocol and signal's implementation are both open source, but you have no way to actually verify that WA has actually implemented the protocol correctly and securely. Sure you could do some basic packet analysis but this wouldn't tell you about the presence of any remotely triggered backdoors. The only way for you as a user to actually verify the security is by reading the s…

There are many ways that both WA and Telegram can be subverted/backdoored/messed up. What it really comes down to, is who do you trust? Do you trust WA or Telegram? Personally, I trust WA a lot more than Telegram since WA has Moxie on their team and Telegram says, "Trust us" and a very unreasonable security challenge. I naturally don't trust people that say "Trust us" and put up unreasonable security challenges.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#362

Post by habosa »

Grollicus wrote: post #309
ww520 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the problem with all these judicial orders. They think it's a flip of the switch to comply. Why don't the courts provide the money to build the services and infrastructure to comply with the order?

In Germany you get recompensation for that. Also one might argue if they don't like the laws they shouldn't access the market.

Not that I am a big fan of this particular law/result, but I want to highlight the second half of your sentence:

"if they don't like the laws they shouldn't access the market"

That is something the HN crowd does not seem to understand/respect. Most of us enjoy the personal protection of the law yet we want to whip up a webapp and have no laws apply to us.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#363

Post by pas »

makecheck wrote: post #328

I am so tired of these “takedowns” and other brute-force methods that are used to essentially squash ants. It always seems way, way too easy to do, and the collateral damage is way too high. The Internet needs to start acting like a series of dumb pipes again: so dumb that you have no idea where information really is, and so huge so as to be impractical for anyone to control. Consider highway systems. For roads, the…

The reality is still a few big telcos/ISPs operating the infrastructure, so government has zero problems mandating filtering/wiretapping/blocking.

And since laying fiber is expensive, and putting up sats is even more expensive, and running a mesh through the continent is pretty unfeasible, we're stuck with these economically optimal big targets (the ISPs/telcos).

As long as there is a network operator with access to core and edge routers, blocking is easy. And by the nature of BGP and the Internet you'll always know who to ask next to filter something.

Or you can use Tor and-or a VPN. Multi-homing for times like this should be set up by default in operating systems.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#364

Post by ricardobeat »

rmsaksida wrote: post #337
coliveira wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I, for one, am glad this is happening because this administration has practiced an incredible variety of crimes, and deeply hurt the country in their hubris. What you said just proves my point. You're happy because you perceive this to your advantage. But this judicial power works both ways. In the future they can use this power to do whatever they want. > A government isn't perpetually in power once it is elected.…

> What you said just proves my point. You're happy because you perceive this to your advantage. No, I'm happy because our institutions are working. What I said doesn't support your point at all. > But this judicial power works both ways. In the future they can use this power to do whatever they want. If, in the future, another government does something remotely similar to what the current government did, I sure hope…

> As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure you're downright lying

Please avoid this kind of hubris here to keep discourse civil.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#365

Post by emiliobumachar »

gtirloni wrote: post #81
zorked wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also points to the fragility of Brazilian institutions.

If the institutions were fragile, the Internet companies would just refuse to comply and block WhatsApp. The fact that they complied shows how strong the institutions are.

It's in the telcos interest to block WhatsApp, they're selling the SMS and phone calls that are used as backup.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#366

Post by lazaroclapp »

makecheck wrote: post #328

I am so tired of these “takedowns” and other brute-force methods that are used to essentially squash ants. It always seems way, way too easy to do, and the collateral damage is way too high. The Internet needs to start acting like a series of dumb pipes again: so dumb that you have no idea where information really is, and so huge so as to be impractical for anyone to control. Consider highway systems. For roads, the…

Telex? https://telex.cc/software.html

As long as you can connect to an ISP implementing the protocol, which is outside of the targeted jurisdiction, you should be able to access the destination site.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#367

Post by aianus »

gnaritas wrote: post #360
aianus wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And yet most people don't. If people's life savings depended on circumventing capital controls, they would find a way. It's already a reality in China [1] and (until recently) Argentina [2]. Hell, where I'm from (Canada) 43% of people admit to having smoked marijuana in their lifetimes. And that's just breaking the law for fun, not serious practical reasons like saving $xx,xxx when your crappy central bank decides…

You're looking at the actions of a very few people and making unjustified sweeping conclusions about what everyone is willing to do. A very small minority of the populations in both those countries are breaking the law to get their money around capital controls, that doesn't in any way challenge the point that most people won't. Most people break drug laws at some point in their lives just for fun, still not relevant…

> Most people obey most laws most of the time

I think you're inverting the causation. Of course things that most people do most of the time would not be illegal, those laws would be very difficult to introduce and sustain politically.

> especially ones that can get them into serious trouble

It's not enough for a law to carry a heavy penalty, people have to believe they can/will get caught and the penalty will apply to them. Which is true for robbery and capital murder but not so with drug use, capital controls, porn bans (click here if you're 18), copyright, etc.

> Laws matter.

Only if someone has the ability, will, and the resources to consistently enforce them. Which is to say, they would not matter in third-world countries with mismanaged economies where people need to break the law to buy BTC/USD.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#368

Post by rmsaksida »

ricardobeat wrote: post #364
rmsaksida wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What you said just proves my point. You're happy because you perceive this to your advantage. No, I'm happy because our institutions are working. What I said doesn't support your point at all. > But this judicial power works both ways. In the future they can use this power to do whatever they want. If, in the future, another government does something remotely similar to what the current government did, I sure hope…

> As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure you're downright lying Please avoid this kind of hubris here to keep discourse civil.

Ta, you have a point. I apologize and will remove the harsh language.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#369

Post by powercf »

noarchy wrote: post #305
brazildewhatsap wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am Brazilian as well and feel the same way. Laws are laws. We can change them if we don't like them, but defying and ignoring them is the wrong course of action.

>I am Brazilian as well and feel the same way. Laws are laws. We can change them if we don't like them, but defying and ignoring them is the wrong course of action. This almost sounds like fundamentalist religion, to say the law is that sacrosanct. Some bad laws have historically been overcome precisely by people ignoring them, rendering them effectively unenforceable.

> Some bad laws have historically been overcome precisely by people ignoring them, rendering them effectively unenforceable.

On the other hand, some good laws have also been overcome by people ignoring them. For example laws governing limitation of police power (search, detention etc.), traffic laws (speeding, jaywalking, aggressive driving against cyclists, a relevent example in Brazil is ignoring of traffic lights). If it gets to the stage where everyone is doing it, then the authorities no longer care.

I don't know whether WhatsApp has the requested data or not, but I think overall this action is a good thing: it shows that even important (in Brazilian society) companies are not above Brazilian law and if there is a problem with what this judge did, or the power he's wielding, then it should, hopefully, lead to that being fixed.

The alternative is ignoring and not enforcing the law, and ending up with bad laws, which can then be selectively enforced (see Böhmermann affair for example). This may appeal to some, but it's clearly not for everyone.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#370

Post by julioneander »

uph wrote: post #155
kiloreux wrote: post #21

Is telegram also blocked, I think it sounds like a good alternative that people can use now, if it's not already blocked.

A better alternative would be Signal https://whispersystems.org/ Telegram is a terrible alternative. Messages aren't even end to end encrypted by default and they're kept accessible on Telegrams servers. See the recent news on how a russian activists Telegram account got hacked giving them access to all stored messages: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2016/04/30/russia-telegram-h... Also this: Thomas H. Ptacek: By de…

I agree that Signal would be a better alternative, I've been trying to convince my family to use it over WhatsApp.

But wouldn't Signal be vulnerable to this type of block too, as they are centralized?

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