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WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

theintercept.com

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Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#311

Post by lucb1e »

MrMullen wrote: post #112
free2rhyme214 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Telegram's secret chats are E2E encrypted.

Using an unexamined and unpublished encryption algorithm. Encryption is hard and when someone says "trust us", you know they are implementing poor encryption.

If you think everything has to be "published" in the sense of a publication in a scientific paper, hacker news is probably a disappointing place. As for unexamined, the bounty for actually cracking the encryption is still open last I heard, and I know people have been trying.

As someone professionally involved in cyber security, I fully understand and agree with the criticism that the protocol is non-standard and does not follow several best practices. On the other hand, it cannot be ignored that it hasn't been cracked yet, despite Telegram being one of the bigger messaging services in the world (especially one attracting a tech-savvy audience) and receiving a lot of attention.

The very least Telegram-haters could do is acknowledge Whatsapp's equally big problem: we cannot verify a thing. Facebok could have either open sourced the clients or published the outer shell of the wire protocol so we can verify the E2E encryption. They chose to do neither.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#312

Post by melvinmt »

envy2 wrote: post #158
soneca wrote: post #64

I'm here to defend the judge's ruling, a position very unpopular among all my friends here in Brazil. Brazilian law regarding regarding privacy of users of internet services is very recent and clear: if a judge order the company to share a specific user data, the company must comply. You can disagree with the law, but the law is there. Now, the judge ordered Whatsapp to share a particular user conversation (a suspect…

There seem to be a few problems with this analysis. First, WhatsApp is a US company and has no presence in Brazil. Under many readings of US law (specifically, ECPA), US companies are in fact prohibited from complying with requests from foreign law enforcement for content, except in emergencies. Instead, foreign law enforcement must make a request for assistance to the US DoJ, which will then (eventually, and maybe)…

> WhatsApp publicly stated that it does not and has not retained any message content once messages are delivered

This does not make a lot of sense.

If they don't retain any message content, then how am I able to browse all my message threads on https://web.whatsapp.com?

EDIT: I'm wrong.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#313

Post by newman8r »

t3nary wrote: post #258
hbosch wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are in the Apple and Google app stores, you mean to say.

The person I was replying to asked "Do they operate in Brazil?". And considering that the app stores are on a country level, I'd say they do.

The app stores operate there as distributors. Just because my product is distributed somewhere by a third party doesn't necessarily mean I operate there.

If an art dealer sells a painting to someone in brazil, does it mean the original artist operates in Brazil?

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#314

Post by kawera »

melvinmt wrote: post #312
envy2 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There seem to be a few problems with this analysis. First, WhatsApp is a US company and has no presence in Brazil. Under many readings of US law (specifically, ECPA), US companies are in fact prohibited from complying with requests from foreign law enforcement for content, except in emergencies. Instead, foreign law enforcement must make a request for assistance to the US DoJ, which will then (eventually, and maybe)…

> WhatsApp publicly stated that it does not and has not retained any message content once messages are delivered This does not make a lot of sense. If they don't retain any message content, then how am I able to browse all my message threads on https://web.whatsapp.com ? EDIT: I'm wrong.

The messages come from your phone; that's why you need your phone to access the webapp.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#315

Post by marcosdumay »

icebraining wrote: post #277
marcosdumay wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Law orders it to collect the data, the data is available and Watsapp does collect it, but instantly discards (or so they claim). What is in there that can not be punished? I don't think this specific law is a good one, but it is not in clear violation of our Constitution, and was brought up by People's representatives... We should fight for improving it, and we should stop relying on infrastructure owned by priva…

The Law orders it to collect the data Which law orders them to collect the data?

Marco Civil da Internet.

Brazilian federal Law nº 12965.

http://www.planalto.gov.br/CCIVIL_03/_Ato2011-2014/2014/Lei/...

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#316

Post by missing_cipher »

melvinmt wrote: post #312
envy2 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There seem to be a few problems with this analysis. First, WhatsApp is a US company and has no presence in Brazil. Under many readings of US law (specifically, ECPA), US companies are in fact prohibited from complying with requests from foreign law enforcement for content, except in emergencies. Instead, foreign law enforcement must make a request for assistance to the US DoJ, which will then (eventually, and maybe)…

> WhatsApp publicly stated that it does not and has not retained any message content once messages are delivered This does not make a lot of sense. If they don't retain any message content, then how am I able to browse all my message threads on https://web.whatsapp.com ? EDIT: I'm wrong.

It connects to your phone which stores the messages, I believe.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#317

Post by the_ancient »

curiouscats wrote: post #148
Others wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But, as it says in the article, WhatsApp just doesn't have the data the judge wants it to turn over. How does it make sense to punish a company for not doing something that it physically cannot do?

Companies can be punished for failure to obey laws. If a company didn't bother to retain records on who bought something they are now required to recall due to safety failures I can't imagine any country would say that is ok. They would be punished. I don't happen to think the law mentioned is a good one. And I have no idea how the law is actually worded. Depending on how it is worded maybe it is ok to just not keep…

>> If a company didn't bother to retain records on who bought something they are now required to recall due to safety failures

I am not aware of any law in the US ( talk on US laws because you discuss it later in your comment) that requires by business to keep sales records for the purposes of recalls, the only businesses required to do that are business that sell regulated goods, (firearms, explosives, Drugs, certain chemicals, etc)

Normal Consumer Goods are recalled all of the time with out the Manufacturers, or Retailers having a master list of every person that bought that item.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#318

Post by jklp »

melvinmt wrote: post #312
envy2 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There seem to be a few problems with this analysis. First, WhatsApp is a US company and has no presence in Brazil. Under many readings of US law (specifically, ECPA), US companies are in fact prohibited from complying with requests from foreign law enforcement for content, except in emergencies. Instead, foreign law enforcement must make a request for assistance to the US DoJ, which will then (eventually, and maybe)…

> WhatsApp publicly stated that it does not and has not retained any message content once messages are delivered This does not make a lot of sense. If they don't retain any message content, then how am I able to browse all my message threads on https://web.whatsapp.com ? EDIT: I'm wrong.

I also use the web interface and I believe it tethers your phone to the browser - so the phone is sending the unencrypted messages to the browser window.

If you delete a message on the phone the message disappears in the web interface too.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#319

Post by coliveira »

rmsaksida wrote: post #294
coliveira wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what you think. You seem glad that this is happening because the government is unpopular. But judges can use this power to attack any government. This doesn't sounds like an advantage to me.

> You seem glad that this is happening because the government is unpopular I, for one, am glad this is happening because this administration has practiced an incredible variety of crimes, and deeply hurt the country in their hubris. > judges can use this power to attack any government A government isn't perpetually in power once it is elected. A government is always legitimizing itself, and it can lose its legitimacy…

> I, for one, am glad this is happening because this administration has practiced an incredible variety of crimes, and deeply hurt the country in their hubris.

What you said just proves my point. You're happy because you perceive this to your advantage. But this judicial power works both ways. In the future they can use this power to do whatever they want.

> A government isn't perpetually in power once it is elected.

True, that's why it is called a democracy. The government will be legitimate only until the next election. It's not a group of judges that can determine the legitimacy of a government.

> It is funny how PT government supporters

The fact that you consider me a PT supporter shows that you just care about your political position, not about the larger point around this issue. There are people pro and anti-goverment who see the big problem that is being created by the Brazilian judicial system. It doesn't matter what government is in power for this to be a problem.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#320

Post by point78 »

envy2 wrote: post #158
soneca wrote: post #64

I'm here to defend the judge's ruling, a position very unpopular among all my friends here in Brazil. Brazilian law regarding regarding privacy of users of internet services is very recent and clear: if a judge order the company to share a specific user data, the company must comply. You can disagree with the law, but the law is there. Now, the judge ordered Whatsapp to share a particular user conversation (a suspect…

There seem to be a few problems with this analysis. First, WhatsApp is a US company and has no presence in Brazil. Under many readings of US law (specifically, ECPA), US companies are in fact prohibited from complying with requests from foreign law enforcement for content, except in emergencies. Instead, foreign law enforcement must make a request for assistance to the US DoJ, which will then (eventually, and maybe)…

Your first point makes no sense whatsoever. Because an American company operates in a foreign country doesn't mean they don't have to follow the law.

"oh sorry, breaking local laws? Oh well, we're in america! Too bad!"

Doesn't work like that.

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