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WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

theintercept.com

231–240 of 629 posts

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Umm, but the issue is that WhatsApp CAN'T comply with the order, because they do not have access to the communications (because they are using end to end encryption). I have no idea what you mean by "come up with ways to identify specific people targeted by court orders"... they aren't being asked to identify anyone, they are being asked to hand over unencrypted communication, which they do not have access to.

The details are under seal, you simply can not know that. Brazil has no law ordering companies to collect communication contents (and it would be against our Constitution). Instead, there is a law requiring them to collect IP addresses of sender and receiver of messages, and storing them for 6 months in case a court requests them. This is information Facebook has, and this is the law they broke last time the service…

Ah ok. I guess I am misinformed.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#232
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there is no coup in place in brazil, stop spreading fud

The only people that say there is no coup going on are people supporting the coup. Please get informed about this discussion.

Ask the supreme court then: http://oglobo.globo.com/brasil/ministros-do-stf-dizem-que-im...

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies can be punished for failure to obey laws. If a company didn't bother to retain records on who bought something they are now required to recall due to safety failures I can't imagine any country would say that is ok. They would be punished. I don't happen to think the law mentioned is a good one. And I have no idea how the law is actually worded. Depending on how it is worded maybe it is ok to just not keep…

So if a judge demanded a telco hand over an audio recording of any specific conversation, they must comply -- even though calls are not recorded and stored? If a judge demanded the postal service hand over an image of every envelope processed, it must comply -- even though no such images exist? Where does it end?

Apparently the USPS does make an image of every envelope processed. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/us/monitoring-of-snail-mai...

But the basic idea is yes, you must comply with all laws. If you can prove it violates the constitution you can have a court invalidate the law (but before that it would be illegal to violate it). There are often laws that you could argue conflict with this law and get out of it that way.

Often if you have lots of money you can influence the enforcement of laws. That doesn't exempt you from a law but often it isn't really an issue of what the law allows but what the regulator or prosecutors decide to enforce. And if you can't do that you can fight the attempts by the regulators and prosecutors (and law enforcement officials) and argue they have not legal right to do what they are seeking to do. See Apple, for a recent example.

Your rights are often not just a matter of the law but of to what extent the government and law enforcement are bound by laws. In the recent experience in the USA we have examples of the Bush and Obama administrations seeking to avoid accountability for authoritarian overreaching. They often seem to get away with it. The recent attempt to push around Apple was stopped mainly due to Apple's lawyers and leaders refusing to be pushed around.

I do not know if the Brazilian example is one where the government and/or judge are attempting to compel behavior not legal in Brazil (either not what the law requires, using a non-legal punishment or neglecting another legal requirement that would override the law being used to compel the behavior). But I do think it would be possible to have such a law and have the judges actions be legal.

Certainly laws can compel companies to do things that they are not now capable of doing. Normally if some new law were to be created the regulatory framework and notice would be publicized and companies would be aware of the requirement (say to keep records or whatever sort). And then if they failed to do so that isn't a justification to fail to comply since they failed to do what was required in order to be able to comply with a further requirement. Their lawyers may also be able to argue the law was unrealistic in expecting compliance because even though we wanted to comply it just wasn't possible to do so. And making a case that they are doing everything they can may be taken into account to say that while they are not fully compliant yet, they are taking all reasonable action and therefore to the extent the judge has leeway they could make adjustments to the consequences.

While it is sometimes annoying the reality is there are so many complications it is often a matter of judgement for whether something is or is not ok and even if it isn't ok, what is a reasonable consequence. When the legal system is working well it makes these judgement in a sensible manner even if it leaves many people unhappy. And then you have things like the Eastern district of Texas making a mockery of abuse of society by patent trolls.

I certainly do believe the legal system can be systemically broken. And those failures can be left unaddressed by our representatives for decades. Could that be similar to what is happening in this Brazil case? Yes. Could it also be that this Brazil case is just a matter of a bad law and the legal system is properly carrying out the consequences of that law? Yes.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They have said that it is impossible for them to provide the information requested. They have said this to the press or to the court? Because it seems to me like Fb/Whatsapp have been pointedly ignoring the courts for months. The least they could do is fly down a lackey to Brazil and say it in person and/or alternatively hire a Brazilian law firm to represent them.

This is going to sound flippant, but think about it, it isn't. What lackey is going to want to fly to a hostile country where the government is battling your employer? I don't want to spend any time in a foreign prison. Who would?

[deleted]

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#235
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They have said that it is impossible for them to provide the information requested. They have said this to the press or to the court? Because it seems to me like Fb/Whatsapp have been pointedly ignoring the courts for months. The least they could do is fly down a lackey to Brazil and say it in person and/or alternatively hire a Brazilian law firm to represent them.

Brazil already arrested a Facebook executive and detained them for 24hrs this year over the fact they said there is nothing that can do regarding the information request. I'm not sure what you're proposing Facebook to do here? Hand over useless encrypted data? Hold a cryptography seminar for Brazillian law enforcement to explain what end-to-end encryption means? Have more of their employees risk arrest?

Pull their app from the Brazilian app store and let democratic process take its course

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#236
post #64

I'm here to defend the judge's ruling, a position very unpopular among all my friends here in Brazil. Brazilian law regarding regarding privacy of users of internet services is very recent and clear: if a judge order the company to share a specific user data, the company must comply. You can disagree with the law, but the law is there. Now, the judge ordered Whatsapp to share a particular user conversation (a suspect…

This ruling makes end-to-end encryption illegal where, a service provider at no time holds the keys to decrypt messages between communicating parties. This is a protocol decision and since the Snowden revelations, a point of concern for civil libertarians. The Apple v FBI debate is a child of these exact concerns. The idea that governments want to legislate unfettered access to private communications and devices shou…

> This ruling makes end-to-end encryption illegal where, a service provider at no time holds the keys

The Big Company (like WhatsApp, Google, Apple) is always the easy target for subpoenas, judicial orders, and National Security Letters when it comes to encrypted transmissions.

Here's an idea for a legal maneuver to take Big Company out of the picture: Suppose crypto was handled by an open source 3rd-party program that was outside of the hands of Big Company. This 3rd-party program would encrypt/decrypt all incoming and outgoing messages, and the program would be mandatory.

If you want to use WhatsApp or other Big Company apps, you must install this open source and fully vetted program. Then if Big Company gets a subpoena, they can legitimately answer that they have absolutely no control over the encryption.

I'm going light on technical details because there are many ways that this could be implemented. The main idea is to insulate Big Companies from renegade legal attacks.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#237
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assert, and I think many of us here are moved by the notion that, as time moves forward, technological solutions tend to be confounding for entrenched power structures and empowering for social liberation. I don't really know how to parse "you can't fix social problems with technology," but I have much more confidence in the growing power of, for example, uncensorable media than I do in any fantasy of change in the…

Then let me be more clear; you can't get around laws with technology. You have to change the laws. Proposing to make something peer to peer doesn't address the actual problem, the law.

As there are countries where laws cannot be changed, technological solutions can fix the problems once and for all.

Even in "democratic" country, you would still have to fight the lobbyists, corporate controlled media and so on.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#238
post #5

Would a p2p architecture thwart this kinda blocking?

Not if the App Store is still in the mix. It's a centralized distribution failure point for the app.

This is only really a problem for unjailbroken iOS devices. On every other platform decentralized distribution is a solved problem with many different solutions.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#239
post #64

I'm here to defend the judge's ruling, a position very unpopular among all my friends here in Brazil. Brazilian law regarding regarding privacy of users of internet services is very recent and clear: if a judge order the company to share a specific user data, the company must comply. You can disagree with the law, but the law is there. Now, the judge ordered Whatsapp to share a particular user conversation (a suspect…

To repeat what everyone else has said: The data doesn't exist on whatsapp's servers.

Now I know the law's position is basically "do what we say or we'll punish you until you comply - and we'll simply ignore you until you figure out a way to do so".

Obviously that's literally impossible for data that doesn't exist anymore, but of course it's technically possible to comply with these laws in the future. And I think that's a bigger problem here - that governments want to turn companies into surveillance tools. It's like telling the postal service to open and scan every single letter - which would have sounded pretty bad in the past, but nowadays that's somehow okay. Not because morals have changed but because it's feasible now.

Following/enforcing laws is generally a good thing, but since we live in a human society and not a robot one, things like that get fuzzy around the edges. Let's imagine an extreme, outlandish case where some odd and unforeseen circumstances in poorly written laws lead to a judge being able to order nuclear attacks on several cities of their own country. I'd want the judge to hold off on that and maybe wait for the legislature to catch up with the will of the people - which is not to die in millions.

Whatsapp isn't exactly a matter of life and death (at least I hope it isn't), but maybe this is a case where values like common sense, the common good and the interests of hundreds of millions of people weigh more than maybe locking up some stupid drug dealer.

I completely disagree with "If they disobey the law, it must have consequences, no matter how big and important to brazilian society they are.". That's the kind of idiocy that emerges right when society ends up working for the benefit of its government instead of the other way around.

If your position is unpopular with your friends, then it's because you think the law is more important than the entire society it's supposed to protect.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#240
post #64

I'm here to defend the judge's ruling, a position very unpopular among all my friends here in Brazil. Brazilian law regarding regarding privacy of users of internet services is very recent and clear: if a judge order the company to share a specific user data, the company must comply. You can disagree with the law, but the law is there. Now, the judge ordered Whatsapp to share a particular user conversation (a suspect…

There is no legal basis to support the judge decision. A telecommunication service must keep records, but by the very difficult to understand Brazilian regulation, WhatsApp can not be considered a telecom service.

A service like WhatsApp is an over the top service, very much like any other communication service that you can use in the internets (like email), that does not need to comply to the telecom services regulations.

The truth is that the judge does not understand the matter being ruled and a single Judge closing a service used by 100m citizens is another proof of a very authoritarian and arrogant judiciary system.

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