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WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

theintercept.com

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Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#221

Post by MoreTuple »

Fargren wrote: post #167
envy2 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There seem to be a few problems with this analysis. First, WhatsApp is a US company and has no presence in Brazil. Under many readings of US law (specifically, ECPA), US companies are in fact prohibited from complying with requests from foreign law enforcement for content, except in emergencies. Instead, foreign law enforcement must make a request for assistance to the US DoJ, which will then (eventually, and maybe)…

If WhatsApp is unable to comply with Brazilian law, should it be allowed to operate in Brazil? I think this is a bad law by the way. Hopefully the clearly negative impact it is having will lead to it's reform.

Do they operate in Brazil? They apparently have no offices there and are only available over the internet (as is true of all websites throughout most of the world.) How can anyone expect to hold what amounts to a random IP address on the internet responsible for anything?

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#222

Post by a3_nm »

krschultz wrote: post #213
rglullis wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's quite an overstatement. People know how to adapt. On the first court order, people were posting on Facebook about how to connect using VPN providers. Millions others downloaded Telegram. I, for one, think that this kind of thing is a very good example on why we should NEVER rely on closed services. Whatsapp may be doing all of the right things (creating new features, improving privacy, keeping the product free…

What's your definition of 'closed'?

I cannot interact with WhatsApp users without registering an account with WhatsApp and running proprietary code published by WhatsApp. Compare with email, where I can email friends at whatever provider without registering with them or having to run their code.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#223

Post by smarx007 »

envy2 wrote: post #158
soneca wrote: post #64

I'm here to defend the judge's ruling, a position very unpopular among all my friends here in Brazil. Brazilian law regarding regarding privacy of users of internet services is very recent and clear: if a judge order the company to share a specific user data, the company must comply. You can disagree with the law, but the law is there. Now, the judge ordered Whatsapp to share a particular user conversation (a suspect…

There seem to be a few problems with this analysis. First, WhatsApp is a US company and has no presence in Brazil. Under many readings of US law (specifically, ECPA), US companies are in fact prohibited from complying with requests from foreign law enforcement for content, except in emergencies. Instead, foreign law enforcement must make a request for assistance to the US DoJ, which will then (eventually, and maybe)…

Foreign law enforcement may kindly request US DoJ OR operate under their (foreign) laws (and with 0 help, it's not hard to guess what route would be taken).

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#224

Post by throwaway_xx9 »

robbiemitchell wrote: post #199
curiouscats wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies can be punished for failure to obey laws. If a company didn't bother to retain records on who bought something they are now required to recall due to safety failures I can't imagine any country would say that is ok. They would be punished. I don't happen to think the law mentioned is a good one. And I have no idea how the law is actually worded. Depending on how it is worded maybe it is ok to just not keep…

So if a judge demanded a telco hand over an audio recording of any specific conversation, they must comply -- even though calls are not recorded and stored? If a judge demanded the postal service hand over an image of every envelope processed, it must comply -- even though no such images exist? Where does it end?

Actually, in the USA, USPS records an image of the front and back of all letters.

It's illegal to open the envelope, but hey - who knows?

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#225

Post by gnaritas »

jMyles wrote: post #25
gnaritas wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't fix social problems with technology. The issue here is Brazilian law and the failure to understand the implications of encryption by the courts, not WhatApp's connection architecture.

I assert, and I think many of us here are moved by the notion that, as time moves forward, technological solutions tend to be confounding for entrenched power structures and empowering for social liberation. I don't really know how to parse "you can't fix social problems with technology," but I have much more confidence in the growing power of, for example, uncensorable media than I do in any fantasy of change in the…

Then let me be more clear; you can't get around laws with technology. You have to change the laws. Proposing to make something peer to peer doesn't address the actual problem, the law.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#226

Post by jlg23 »

Jtsummers wrote: post #117
meira wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More important. Why aren't congressmen creating rules to prevent these monopolies ?

?? Can't tell if serious. Unless whatsapp did something to wreck their competition in Brazil, any effective monopoly they possess is by virtue of people choosing to use their system over other systems. This sort of effective monopoly cannot and ought not be stopped unless the monopoly power is abusing their position. And how would you when it's a choice people have made? Mandate that every 5th person mustn't use What…

With at least Claro whatsapp is free there[1], not sure about the other telcos. And yes, people use it. I just spent a few weeks there and for every call there were like 50 whatsapp-messages.

[1] http://www.bnamericas.com/en/news/telecommunications/claro-b...

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#227

Post by dongping »

kuschku wrote: post #94
gnaritas wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't fix social problems with technology. The issue here is Brazilian law and the failure to understand the implications of encryption by the courts, not WhatApp's connection architecture.

The court doesn’t care about encryption – they only want the IP address of the user, so they can identify them. The judge – which has experience with E2E encryption – says he knows he can’t get the messages.

Sure, E2E is not enough. One would need plausible deniability from technologies like mixnet etc.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#229

Post by t3nary »

MoreTuple wrote: post #221
Fargren wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If WhatsApp is unable to comply with Brazilian law, should it be allowed to operate in Brazil? I think this is a bad law by the way. Hopefully the clearly negative impact it is having will lead to it's reform.

Do they operate in Brazil? They apparently have no offices there and are only available over the internet (as is true of all websites throughout most of the world.) How can anyone expect to hold what amounts to a random IP address on the internet responsible for anything?

Their apps are in the Brazilian app stores

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#230

Post by smarx007 »

robbiemitchell wrote: post #199
curiouscats wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies can be punished for failure to obey laws. If a company didn't bother to retain records on who bought something they are now required to recall due to safety failures I can't imagine any country would say that is ok. They would be punished. I don't happen to think the law mentioned is a good one. And I have no idea how the law is actually worded. Depending on how it is worded maybe it is ok to just not keep…

So if a judge demanded a telco hand over an audio recording of any specific conversation, they must comply -- even though calls are not recorded and stored? If a judge demanded the postal service hand over an image of every envelope processed, it must comply -- even though no such images exist? Where does it end?

Look, if a judge has such a right, a corporate lawyer usually has an idea that such a request might come. Companies that do not break law must do what is needed to make sure they will not violate any laws – neither now nor in the future. Or WhatsApp may say – sorry Brazil, we do not think that complying with your laws would be appropriate for us and stop servicing Brazilian numbers until laws are changed. But it's just not right to ignore country laws as long as that country is not US.
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