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Bitcoin's $137k Jackpot

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141–150 of 156 posts

Re: Bitcoin's $137k Jackpot

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like Maxwell's equations? Maxwell's equations don't yield workable GPS. You need general relativity. Similarly, you need a blockchain (or some similar solution for the double-spend problem) for a workable digital currency. > Anyway, for (b) security it claims to be secure by providing a way for the bank A to reveal the identity P of the double-spender mathematically from the duplicate spent coins. Yes, exactly, it…

Well, whether or not you agree, there is some newness. The Okamoto-Ohta scheme might seem like handing out gift card codes to people as payment to you, but there are interesting mathematical properties to it that move responsibility further up the ladder than simply saying you're SOL if you've been handed a spent card number. If you hold BTC you might not want to hear that Bitcoin has faults, but it does. Outside of…

> but there are interesting mathematical properties to it that move responsibility further up the ladder

That's the thing, with decentralized digital currencies, there is no "further up the ladder", nor can there be, so this property isn't appreciated. And decentralized digital currencies are the only ones that are finding any traction.

> Outside of practical problems, it's labeled as a cryptocurrency but the design of it, besides wallet keys, uses little cryptography.

You should read up on the latest developments. Bitcoin is essentially a platform now that has hundreds of different technical innovations (most of them involving cryptography, which you seem fond of) built either on top of or with modifications to. Everything from segwit to Lightning Network to n-of-m escrow transactions to Darksend to sidechains to blind transactions to Ethereum to Namecoin etc. etc. etc. You could spend months reading up on all of this. It's all made possible thanks to Bitcoin. Also, did you know that Bitcoin has a built-in scripting language (from the very beginning) that allows all sorts of nifty transactions that are way more complicated than "Send N BTC from A to B"? You should look into it.

> the block chain itself is completely centralized, while the miners are decentralized.

Huh? Every full node has its own copy of the blockchain. It's way more decentralized than mining, which is limited to a smallish number of pools. That everyone has the same copy of Bitcoin just means that everyone is living in the same objective reality; it has to be the same, otherwise you could never agree on anything. Absent a currency that has intrinsic value such as gold (and there are big problems inherent in that too), and which is impossible for virtual currencies, the value comes from everyone agreeing on where the value is.

> Waiting 10 minutes for a charge to pass before getting something out of a vending machine

Well realistically a vending machine would just do a 0-conf transaction, because pulling off a double spend would be way more effort than it's worth just to steal a soda. But also, you do realize that ten minutes is just a tuning parameter, right? There's no fundamental reason it has to be that value. There are altcoins with faster blocks, and Lightning Network does side-chain transactions that confirm near instantly. It's not an intractable problem, in other words; you just tune some parameters or use something built on top of Bitcoin. People are much more willing to use modifications on top of Bitcoin to solve these problems than they are to give up on the decentralized nature of it entirely and just go with something else. It's no accident that decentralization is the killer feature, and anything lacking it is a non-starter.

There are plenty of centralized financial payment services that are good enough. That ideas in that article you linked to never caught on because they don't add value of the kind that people care about. It's no accident that it was never actually implemented. Bitcoin, meanwhile, just did that one thing, decentralization, but because of that it has been used by millions of people worldwide, and is sitting at a total market cap right now of ~$7 billion. You can't really argue with results. You can keep arguing until you're blue in the face that decentralization doesn't really matter, that all these other things are actually more important, but that's not borne out by results.

> or having your card information stolen by a faulty vending machine card reader for your run-of-the-mill credit card.

This is an unrelated issue related to push vs pull transactions (push is better). Credit cards are pull transactions. Bitcoin is push. Chip and PIN as implemented by credit cards in most of the rest of the world are also push transactions, and also handily solve the problem.

> The truth is both BTC and other digital cash forms have the same problem - there are no chargebacks. So if you purchase something at a distance with either, there's no way for a refund if someone runs off with your money.

Yes, sending Bitcoin using a raw transaction is like sending cash or a money order. No argument there. People are used to those risks however. Also, using the aforementioned Bitcoin Script language, you can write multisig escrow transactions that do allow what are effectively chargebacks. I suggest you look into it. You are arguing many things as being faults of Bitcoin and the related ecosystem which do in fact have solutions.

I've been fairly heavily involved in Bitcoin for about five years now and this is just scratching the surface. I do recommend learning more -- most of your concerns are already addressed in ways that do not compromise decentralization.

Re: Bitcoin's $137k Jackpot

#142
post #47
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

unusual, like paying 1 billion times over recent prices?

A billion times over market price, funny; who in their right mind would even pay 20x over market price in any meaningful amount without requiring some sort of control?

See also rm -rf

Re: Bitcoin's $137k Jackpot

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, whether or not you agree, there is some newness. The Okamoto-Ohta scheme might seem like handing out gift card codes to people as payment to you, but there are interesting mathematical properties to it that move responsibility further up the ladder than simply saying you're SOL if you've been handed a spent card number. If you hold BTC you might not want to hear that Bitcoin has faults, but it does. Outside of…

> but there are interesting mathematical properties to it that move responsibility further up the ladder That's the thing, with decentralized digital currencies, there is no "further up the ladder", nor can there be, so this property isn't appreciated. And decentralized digital currencies are the only ones that are finding any traction. > Outside of practical problems, it's labeled as a cryptocurrency but the design…

The block-chain is a centralized record of all transactions ever. Just because there are many, many copies of it doesn't negate this.

A digital cash system with 20 independent banks and offline transactions could arguably be more decentralized.

Re: Bitcoin's $137k Jackpot

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but there are interesting mathematical properties to it that move responsibility further up the ladder That's the thing, with decentralized digital currencies, there is no "further up the ladder", nor can there be, so this property isn't appreciated. And decentralized digital currencies are the only ones that are finding any traction. > Outside of practical problems, it's labeled as a cryptocurrency but the design…

The block-chain is a centralized record of all transactions ever. Just because there are many, many copies of it doesn't negate this. A digital cash system with 20 independent banks and offline transactions could arguably be more decentralized.

It's not centralized though. Each node is independently building and verifying the entire record, based on no criteria other than (a) prefer the longest chain and (b) use blocks you get over the P2P network from other nodes. You are using the word "centralized" incorrectly, or at the very least, in a way that is inconsistent with the way that everyone else in the space uses it. A semantic argument over a word doesn't change the way that things work.

The only centralized thing about Bitcoin is that the logic (i.e. the software rules) that all nodes are using is the same. If this weren't true then there could be no consensus blockchain. But there's a huge difference between thousands of different actors, all who merely happen to be running the same software that determines things by consensus, and then a single authoritative actor who controls everything by fiat.

Re: Bitcoin's $137k Jackpot

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There aren't coins as such. The address the fee goes to is given in the block.

Exactly. So this accomplishes absolutely nothing. Your identity from address A flows right through to the "fee address".

The person with dirty money is paid with the reward of other blocks, not the one with his transaction.

Re: Bitcoin's $137k Jackpot

#146
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Each bitcoin block takes 25 BTC (11000 USD at time of writing) worth of electricity to mine, because that is the maximum that the sum total of miners can afford to spend and still break even. Currently it's only possible to fit somewhere around 2000 transactions in each block, because there is a hard-coded limit on the size of a block (1 MiB). So each transaction costs 11000/2000=5.5 USD, which is indeed the approxim…

This is a dramatic oversimplification of the Bitcoin network. First, the hashrate's primary purpose is not mining transactions, it's securing the network. That includes transactions that have already been mined, and includes all of the bitcoins that everyone is sitting on. For me personally, Bitcoin's primary purpose is not moving money around but rather parking my money safely in an asset that is not subject to the…

You're right, I've left a lot out here for simplicity. I've ignored that miners have costs other than electricity, that miners buy their electricity for cheaper than the average american, that most miners make a profit, that currency exchange markets have friction, that miners provide a more valuable service to the network than creating coins, that the average block has less than 2000 transactions, that it is possible to fit more than 2000 transactions into a 1 MiB block, that the current price reflects expectations of the post-halvening future, and so on. My estimate could be half or double the real number, though I think it is in the right ballpark. I really wanted people to take away two things from that comment which I'm not sure I got across:

1) The cost (in money and energy) of each transaction will increase as the value of each coin increases, and decrease as the number of transactions per block increases. If we assume that the number of transactions will increase faster than the value (which I think is a reasonable assumption), then the cost per transaction will fall over time.

2) When all 21 million coins have been mined, the block reward has tapered off to zero, and miners are dependent on transaction fees, the cost (in money and energy) of each transaction will be much lower than today. You can think of the energy currently being burned on mining new coins as being the tangible asset which backs those coins.

Re: Bitcoin's $137k Jackpot

#147
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This does not serve as a tumbling mechanism because the participants aren't peers. The coins went all one direction from source to many destinations. If those many destinations don't, in turn, pay the source back in some way you've just lost the money not laundered it.

I don't understand your objection. The mechanism I explained works to launder and obscure the auditable trail of Bitcoin. All I figure is that you're pointing out some there is some risk inherent in the mining pool simply walking away with the money. OK, sure. There's lots of trust involved in the Bitcoin ecosystem. Every time I buy something on the Internet with Bitcoin I'm trusting the retailer to send me what I or…

No, you're not describing something like A (typical tumbling) is risky, and B (paid back by miners) is better but with somewhat more risk.

A is I give you a million dollars, you give me the deed on your house. There is risk, there is trust involved, but we both are peers and bare equivalent risk.

B is I give a small portion of a million dollars to hundreds or thousands of people and ask that they pay a new account some large portion of it.

B is 100% risk. It is in fact guaranteed not to work in the aggregate. The problem is that none of the individual miners have a stake, as I said they are not peers. In fact it's worse then that, they would incur unnecessary risk of their own to payback the money rather than just keep it because of the danger of being implicated in a money laundering scheme.

With tumbling every participant shares risk equally since every participant puts funds into the system. In your scenario weather it's 10 miners or 10000 miners NONE of them are putting up any money at the same time, AND you must trust every single individual.

It simply doesn't work. It is not a lauding scheme of any kind.

Re: Bitcoin's $137k Jackpot

#148
post #3

I'd definitely keep that amount if I won it through mining. It's really hard swapping `amount` to `fee`, in coding, so I bet that this was a human mistake on sending btc, not coding mistake...

Well aren't you an opportunistic prick.

This comment breaks the HN guidelines. Please (re)-read them and post civilly and substantively—or not at all—from now on.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html

Re: Bitcoin's $137k Jackpot

#149
post #129
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

.. Or sending the action "deal 1000 damage" when the maximum damage any weapon can do is 5

You can't send an action "deal 1000 damage." The client says "shoot in that direction" the server determines what damage, if any, occurs.

Unless you're playing The Division (putting things like RPM, recoil, and player location client side).

Re: Bitcoin's $137k Jackpot

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand your objection. The mechanism I explained works to launder and obscure the auditable trail of Bitcoin. All I figure is that you're pointing out some there is some risk inherent in the mining pool simply walking away with the money. OK, sure. There's lots of trust involved in the Bitcoin ecosystem. Every time I buy something on the Internet with Bitcoin I'm trusting the retailer to send me what I or…

No, you're not describing something like A (typical tumbling) is risky, and B (paid back by miners) is better but with somewhat more risk. A is I give you a million dollars, you give me the deed on your house. There is risk, there is trust involved, but we both are peers and bare equivalent risk. B is I give a small portion of a million dollars to hundreds or thousands of people and ask that they pay a new account so…

I think you are misunderstanding how mining pools work. It's only the pool operator that needs to know the valuable fee transaction in order to launder Bitcoin via block rewards. The individual miners that are in the pool are just hashing over a hash of the merkle root of all of the transactions that the pool has selected, along with several other fields. More details here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_hashing_algorithm

The individual miners don't know, and have no control over, the transactions in the tree that they are hashing. The only person you need to trust is the person in charge of the pool. So this part is wrong:

> In fact it's worse then that, they would incur unnecessary risk of their own to payback the money rather than just keep it because of the danger of being implicated in a money laundering scheme.

The miners have no option to pay back or keep the money. They just submit valid hashes of what is essentially nonsense to them (other hashes), and get paid out for doing so. They have no control over the mining pool operator, no control over what they're hashing, and no way of defecting other than by withholding valid hashes, which is disincentivized because it costs them money.

To use an example, AntPool is currently sitting at ~30% of the network hash rate. That works out to about 50 blocks per day, more than enough to do lots of laundering if they were so inclined. If I had, say, 1,000 BTC I wanted to launder, all I would have to trust is the main technical person at AntPool. I'd give them fifty different transactions, each with a block fee of 20 BTC, and they could launder it over a day, then give me back most of that 1,000 BTC in transactions to unrelated addresses from unrelated sources at their leisure. I literally only have to trust a single person at AntPool to do this -- I don't understand where you think these thousands of other people come in. It's certainly not doomed to fail.

The only real risk I can see is that a lot of mining pools (but not all) include transaction fees in the block reward bonus to be distributed to miners, after the mining pool rake is taken anyway. You'd simply have to calculate the fees differently. Currently miners might be paid out for, say, 95% of the value of a total block transaction fee summing up to around ~0.25-0.5 BTC. You'd continue paying that out for normal transaction fees, but then also add in, say, 1% of non-P2P transaction fees (the money-laundering ones), with another 1% being taken by the pool and the other 98% ultimately going back to the source in untraceable transactions. This would actually create a lot of incentive to use the pool that is doing the money laundering, because they'd be paying out more per found block since they have a second income stream!

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