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The A-10 Warthog May Be Kept Out of Retirement by Law

foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com

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Re: The A-10 Warthog May Be Kept Out of Retirement by Law

#71

Post by Symmetry »

jokoon wrote: post #42
dforrestwilson1 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a real moral dilemma for me. I served in the military, and the A-10 is simply the best manned aircraft we have for CAS. However, I also hate the defense lobby. One one hand there's probably a job interest in keeping the A-10 running. Mac Thornberry has taken campaign donations from lots of defense contractors, including some related to the A-10: http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/pacs.php?cycle=2016&c...…

Can't apaches do CAS properly because they're not fast enough, so they make good targets?

You could say the same about the A-10.

Re: The A-10 Warthog May Be Kept Out of Retirement by Law

#72

Post by the_ancient »

nosequel wrote: post #18
the_ancient wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Airforce does not want the A-10 The Army and Marines are begging to keep it I trust the Army and Marines more than the fucking Airforce

Why is that exactly? I love the A-10, and so does the Army and Marines, it is by far the best CAS weapon we have. The airforce knows more about aircraft and keeping those aircraft in the air than both the army and marines. Unfortunately the A-10 is old, and no one is manufacturing replacement parts for it. So as of right now the air force is happy with AC-130 gunship and the F-15E, F35. I hate the idea of the A-10 go…

The F-16 as well as the F15 and AC130.

the F35 is a trillion dollar paperwieght that should be scraped, I would be more in favor of ending that trillion dollar gift to Lockheed by way of the corrupt military than ending the A10 program

//For the record, I fucking hate the F35, it is by far the worst aircraft ever produced by the US Military

Re: The A-10 Warthog May Be Kept Out of Retirement by Law

#73

Post by SEJeff »

55acdda48ab5 wrote: post #41
GunboatDiplomat wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would be reasonable is the Air Force pulling its head out its ass and just giving the CAS role back to the Army, since they hate it so much. Seriously, just give the Army the CAS roles, and the Air Force can go zoom around in their shiny supersonic invisible aircraft, and the soldiers and marines on the ground can get the close air support they so need from an organization not doing everything it can to stop giv…

The problem is that the CAS mission the A-10 performs is effectively impossible against any modern enemy with modern missile systems and manpads. The A-10 is for shooting up poor brown people we're messing with for no particular reason, not for fighting a real war. The solution here is to get rid of the A-10 and simply not do "nation building" and counter-insurgency in poor countries. We don't need the A-10 because i…

It really isn't. The A10 is basically a flying tank meant to be hit and survive. The Iraqi army of desert storm was a "modern enemy" with pretty decent soviet gear at the time. US gear was just that much better due to us spending such an obnoxious amount of our GDP on our military. A manpad doesn't have remotely explosive power of the AA that hit the A10 in this video, don't believe me? See the pictures yourself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7JM82fa5ZY

There are literally dozens and dozens of similar stories. The A10 is simply put the most effective CAS tool the US Military has or ever had. CAS is a very important part of US warfare and just because they might be against an enemy with better anti-air doesn't negate the need for boots on the ground, which require CAS for maximum survivability. Most likely the Stealth B2s or RQ-170 Sentinel would be sent in first to quickly take out as much of the AAA as possible.

Disclaimer: I'm a veteran of Operation Iraqi Freedom II, and flew the Shadow 200 TUAV. I targeted several times for A10s and have heard the BRRRRRRRRRRTTTTTT up close.

Re: The A-10 Warthog May Be Kept Out of Retirement by Law

#74

Post by SEJeff »

GunboatDiplomat wrote: post #19
maxerickson wrote: post #2

This is something congress really shouldn't be doing. For example, how much of the scope ambition and scope creep for the F 35 came from congressional meddling? Someone recognized for their expertise in infantry strategy and tactics should be placed in charge of close air support procurement, given a preliminary budget to try to meet and then be given free reign to figure out what they can get from that budget.

What would be reasonable is the Air Force pulling its head out its ass and just giving the CAS role back to the Army, since they hate it so much. Seriously, just give the Army the CAS roles, and the Air Force can go zoom around in their shiny supersonic invisible aircraft, and the soldiers and marines on the ground can get the close air support they so need from an organization not doing everything it can to stop giv…

Randomly, nice nick. The Culture reference made me smile.

Doing that (Taking CAS responsibilities from the USAF) is actually a wonderful idea. One of the reasons the F35 is such a cluster f is due to the Marines requiring it to more or less be a Harrier replacement. The Marines use the harriers primarily for CAS and I've targeted for them as well in Iraq when I was there ~2003-2004 during the big Fallujah offensive.

Re: The A-10 Warthog May Be Kept Out of Retirement by Law

#75

Post by the_ancient »

dragonwriter wrote: post #38
the_ancient wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Airforce does not want the A-10 The Army and Marines are begging to keep it I trust the Army and Marines more than the fucking Airforce

The people that actually have to support and operate it don't want it, the people whose mission it supports but who don't bear the support burden do want it. In each case, there are structural biases that favor those decisions even if they aren't right on balance.

The People that actually operate it (they have never supported it) do not want CAS, they have never wanted CAS

They want high flying fast support stealth where they can push a button and fire a missile at a target miles and miles away...

They want nothing to with close support

Re: The A-10 Warthog May Be Kept Out of Retirement by Law

#76

Post by the_ancient »

Retric wrote: post #15
the_ancient wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it is arbitrary definition you are making I fail to see how that is different than simply coming to congress with "We protect America now give us a trillion dollars of stolen money you pried from the citizens and do not dare ask us how we will spend it" I think every damn screw the military buys should be heavily scrutinized by someone outside the military, maybe congress is not the right venue but the idea that t…

Tools != goals. The A-10 is not useful to the modern US military. If congress wants to fund something better great, but as it stands the A-10 is simply wasting Money. It's like congress is funding muskets from the revolutionary war.

Ahh the mythical Russia or China Threat

You are preparing for a war that will never happen...

The world has gotten much much too small for it, and if it does the F35 is not going to be a factor because the ICBM's will have killed most of the population anyway.

A-10 is exactly the type of aircraft we need to fight non-nation state enemy's, Nation on Nation battles are going to be short lived and mainly economic not with Planes.

Re: The A-10 Warthog May Be Kept Out of Retirement by Law

#77

Post by SEJeff »

GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #59
GunboatDiplomat wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, you tell the soldiers and marines who are currently on the ground and fighting that we're getting rid of what is, for them, the most effective solution. Until we're actually not fighting these wars, it's best to keep the most effective weapons to fight them around.

You could also tell them 'hey we're bringing you back home to the States' and I think that would help the medicine go down.

That is sadly untenable. Daesh, AQ, and affiliates aren't going to just stop wanting America to burn in ashes because we pull out of Iraq & Afghanistan. War sucks, but you can't reason with ideology of fanatics. If they try to kill you, you have to kill them or let them kill you. You can try to help educate the children and give them alternatives to killing you, but you can't stop them all as ideals never die.

Re: The A-10 Warthog May Be Kept Out of Retirement by Law

#78

Post by platz »

SEJeff wrote: post #73
55acdda48ab5 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the CAS mission the A-10 performs is effectively impossible against any modern enemy with modern missile systems and manpads. The A-10 is for shooting up poor brown people we're messing with for no particular reason, not for fighting a real war. The solution here is to get rid of the A-10 and simply not do "nation building" and counter-insurgency in poor countries. We don't need the A-10 because i…

It really isn't. The A10 is basically a flying tank meant to be hit and survive. The Iraqi army of desert storm was a "modern enemy" with pretty decent soviet gear at the time. US gear was just that much better due to us spending such an obnoxious amount of our GDP on our military. A manpad doesn't have remotely explosive power of the AA that hit the A10 in this video, don't believe me? See the pictures yourself: htt…

I think OP is saying flying tanks don't do well against missiles.

Re: The A-10 Warthog May Be Kept Out of Retirement by Law

#79

Post by the_ancient »

Retric wrote: post #70
Turing_Machine wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The A-10 is not useful to the modern US military." The Army and Marine Corps disagree. Strongly.

Nope, http://www.dodbuzz.com/2015/02/25/army-not-interested-in-tak... . Army not interested in the A-10. "close-air support is not a plane, it’s a mission.”

>>“Anyone who is passing information to Congress about A-10 capabilities is committing treason.”

WOW.... I really have no words for how messed up that is

Re: The A-10 Warthog May Be Kept Out of Retirement by Law

#80

Post by SEJeff »

jokoon wrote: post #42
dforrestwilson1 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a real moral dilemma for me. I served in the military, and the A-10 is simply the best manned aircraft we have for CAS. However, I also hate the defense lobby. One one hand there's probably a job interest in keeping the A-10 running. Mac Thornberry has taken campaign donations from lots of defense contractors, including some related to the A-10: http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/pacs.php?cycle=2016&c...…

Can't apaches do CAS properly because they're not fast enough, so they make good targets?

Apaches are great for CAS, however one of the more common things for CAS is when someone gets pinned down. You need CAS ASAP and don't always know when you'll need reinforcements. An example would be when I was in Iraq and a pair of Kiowas with .50 machine guns and missle pods were doing air support of raids. One of the kiowas took a well aimed RPG to the tail rotor and went down in the middle of a very bad part of Tall'Afar. They made a military channel episode about it which included some of the video I shot as the payload (camera) operator of a surveillance drone in it.

http://www.amazon.com/Battlefield-Diaries-Episode-Kiowa-Down...

I was a Shadow 200 UAV (aka drone) pilot. We needed some heavy CAS onsite ASAP to prevent a pretty large armed crowd of insurgents doing a repeat of Blackhawk Down in Somalia. So, we radioed to the nearest airbase (in Mosul) roughly 60k away and they launched a Harrier loaded with a GBU50 (Also called an Enhanced Paveway II / 2000lb bomb). The plane was onsite in a few minutes where it would have taken an Apache much much longer to get there.

They dropped that big boy munition on a weapons cache where the insurgents were going back to re-arm. Miraculously, the single infantry platoon near the crash site managed to secure the pilots and hold their ground long enough for the engineers to send a combat wrecker, pull the burning hulk of the Kiowa onto the flatbed, and get everyone out. The only injury was one of the infantryman caught a bullet in the heel. So... to recap, you need something that can go a bit faster than a helicopter sometimes to get CAS somewhere ASAP. A warthog's top speed is 460mph compared to an Apache's top speed of 182mph. The speed will save lives at times like in that video. I know this because I was literally there. It was terrifying.

EDIT (forgot to add): Apaches in fact were almost always doing aerial overwatch of large convoys when we would be driving a batallion of Strykers from Samarrah to Tall'Afar, or to Mosul, etc. The thing is that they do catch a lot of flak by being low, loud, and slow. Helos of any type tend to "hunt in pairs" as we were told as when one starts catching flak and taking fire, the other will pound the originator while the other takes evasive maneuvers. In the above story, the 2nd Kiowa was pounding the hell out of the ground but had to leave station as it was running low on ammo and 2 down helos is a really bad place to be in the middle of a very angry city.

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