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Linux greybeards release beta of systemd-free Debian fork

theregister.co.uk

21–30 of 189 posts

Re: Linux greybeards release beta of systemd-free Debian fork

#21
post #8

Counterpoint from a former systemd skeptic who now likes it: http://changelog.complete.org/archives/9655-count-me-as-a-sy...

It's a reasonable counterpoint, but limited to the part of systemd that manages starting and stopping services. It also takes over virtual terminals, syslog services, login management, network interface configuration, dhcp, system time, udev device management, containers (machined, dbus, cgroups). That, to me, is where more of the concern lies.

Indeed, trying to get a full understanding of systemd is not easy, it's so large. It's like trying to understand a large piece of corporate software.

Re: Linux greybeards release beta of systemd-free Debian fork

#22
post #9
post #3

Nice, but from the users' standpoint it would've been better if they had worked with Debian rather than rolling out their own distro.

Do users care though? I don't. I select a Linux distro based on how popular it is because frankly they are all pretty excellent these days. I go for popular distros because it's more likely that bugs are found and community help is available. I also do very little customization. If the default window system is Gnome, that's what I use. If it's KDE or something else, that's fine too. Again, they are all good enough. I…

Exactly, I use Debian because it has a large user base and community. But that's precisely why it's important than the mainstream distributions continue to support the traditional Unix init. People don't want to have to switch to some obscure distribution simply to avoid systemd.

Re: Linux greybeards release beta of systemd-free Debian fork

#23

I can't believe anyone would like to keep using sysvinit-scripts or RC-scripts. I love bash, I love nitpicking about how to use bash along with the other bash nazis in #bash@freenode. But I would never put myself through sysvinit again. I thoroughly enjoy using distros like CentOS 7, Fedora 23, RHEL7. They're a joy to manage and work with, in part thanks to Systemd. I never want to debug, troubleshoot, or even look a…

I've been using Linux for the last 15 years and I don't remember ever having to fiddle with any init scripts.

Re: Linux greybeards release beta of systemd-free Debian fork

#24
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a reasonable counterpoint, but limited to the part of systemd that manages starting and stopping services. It also takes over virtual terminals, syslog services, login management, network interface configuration, dhcp, system time, udev device management, containers (machined, dbus, cgroups). That, to me, is where more of the concern lies.

Indeed, trying to get a full understanding of systemd is not easy, it's so large. It's like trying to understand a large piece of corporate software.

Also, the point of switching and studying is not clear. If all you need is service startup and keeping up, a few more polished tools exist with a dramatically ssmaller footprint.

Re: Linux greybeards release beta of systemd-free Debian fork

#25
post #23

I can't believe anyone would like to keep using sysvinit-scripts or RC-scripts. I love bash, I love nitpicking about how to use bash along with the other bash nazis in #bash@freenode. But I would never put myself through sysvinit again. I thoroughly enjoy using distros like CentOS 7, Fedora 23, RHEL7. They're a joy to manage and work with, in part thanks to Systemd. I never want to debug, troubleshoot, or even look a…

I've been using Linux for the last 15 years and I don't remember ever having to fiddle with any init scripts.

I used to. It wasn't fun, but it wasn't terrible either. And I probably overused rc.local...

Re: Linux greybeards release beta of systemd-free Debian fork

#26
post #22
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do users care though? I don't. I select a Linux distro based on how popular it is because frankly they are all pretty excellent these days. I go for popular distros because it's more likely that bugs are found and community help is available. I also do very little customization. If the default window system is Gnome, that's what I use. If it's KDE or something else, that's fine too. Again, they are all good enough. I…

Exactly, I use Debian because it has a large user base and community. But that's precisely why it's important than the mainstream distributions continue to support the traditional Unix init. People don't want to have to switch to some obscure distribution simply to avoid systemd.

There isn't much reason for a mainstream user to touch a system with a traditional init nowadays either.

Re: Linux greybeards release beta of systemd-free Debian fork

#27

I can't believe anyone would like to keep using sysvinit-scripts or RC-scripts. I love bash, I love nitpicking about how to use bash along with the other bash nazis in #bash@freenode. But I would never put myself through sysvinit again. I thoroughly enjoy using distros like CentOS 7, Fedora 23, RHEL7. They're a joy to manage and work with, in part thanks to Systemd. I never want to debug, troubleshoot, or even look a…

If all systemd did was sysvinit-script replacement, I'd be 100% behind it. I agree with you, sysvinit-scripts are terrible. It's all the other stuff, and the lack of modularity, that makes me dislike it.

Re: Linux greybeards release beta of systemd-free Debian fork

#28
One giant program to rule them all was never the Unix way. System's monolithic architecture will be its downfall. Rather than stabilize I predict that systemd will get more and more complicated and eventualy fall due to unwieldy maintenance problems at which point someone will come up with a better more modular system.

Re: Linux greybeards release beta of systemd-free Debian fork

#29
post #16

Glad to see this coming out. https://www.devuan.org Downloading via torrent now, it's 10G via torrent? Anyways it seems the file server there is under pressure now. I for one don't want to deal with systemd from the start. Never liked its intrusive, all-in-one, hard to debug design approach.

Yeah, I dislike systemd but I'm not going to abandon the Debian Foundation over it.

Re: Linux greybeards release beta of systemd-free Debian fork

#30
No point in discussing systemd anymore quite frankly, it won, doubt that it's good it did, doubt the methods by which it won - I do both - but it won. Many of the major distributions are not really following the Unix philosophy anymore, heck, some stopped quite a long time ago to do so.

I run sever operating systems because I like to have the control, the minimalism, the elegance, the security. By trying to be more of a desktop orientated system, Linux actually looses what attracts people like myself to using it. I doubt they care, I don't think they have to, just as I don't have to use it.

"This is the Unix philosophy: Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a universal interface."[1]

"Much of the power of the UNIX operating system comes from a style of program design that makes programs easy to use and, more important, easy to combine with other programs. This style has been called the use of software tools , and depends more on how the programs fit into the programming environment - how they can be used with other programs - than on how they are designed internally. But as the system has become commercially successful and has spread widely, this style has often been compromised, to the detriment of all users. Old programs have become encrusted with dubious features. Newer programs are not always written with attention to proper separation of function and design for interconnection. [...]

This style was based on the use of tools : using programs separately or in combination to get a job done, rather than doing it by hand, by monolithic self-sufficient subsystems, or by special-purpose, one-time programs. [...]

One thing that UNIX does not need is more features. It is successful in part because it has a small number of good ideas that work well together. Merely adding features does not make it easier for users to do things - it just makes the manual thicker. The right solution in the right place is always more effective than haphazard hacking."[2]

Still reading at this point? Great systemd free Linux distributions: Gentoo, Funtoo, Void Linux, among many others and there is also something called BSD (FreeBSD, OpenBSD, DragonflyBSD)... you should check it out. Also see www.suckless.org

[1] http://www.amazon.com/Quarter-Century-UNIX-Peter-Salus/dp/02...

[2] http://harmful.cat-v.org/cat-v/unix_prog_design.pdf

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