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Linux greybeards release beta of systemd-free Debian fork

theregister.co.uk

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Re: Linux greybeards release beta of systemd-free Debian fork

#11

Post by mwfunk »

tmptmp wrote: post #7
etiam wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem sort of is that (the rest of) Debian wouldn't work with them on this.

You are quite right, as the overall Debian's stance on systemd was far from praiseworthy. They allowed themselves to be pushed around too far by the "end-user" (desktop-users) mentality of the gnome and few such other upstreams. This is a very good news. Indeed it would have better if the Debian had been a little bit more flexible and sensible on this issue. Congrats Devuan folks! My heartfelt thanks too. Edit: added…

How dare they consider end users! What is the world coming to?!?

Re: Linux greybeards release beta of systemd-free Debian fork

#12

Post by lawl »

criddell wrote: post #9
lottin wrote: post #3

Nice, but from the users' standpoint it would've been better if they had worked with Debian rather than rolling out their own distro.

Do users care though? I don't. I select a Linux distro based on how popular it is because frankly they are all pretty excellent these days. I go for popular distros because it's more likely that bugs are found and community help is available. I also do very little customization. If the default window system is Gnome, that's what I use. If it's KDE or something else, that's fine too. Again, they are all good enough. I…

Some care. I don't think it'll ever be "mainstream". But I certainly care. I switched from Arch to Gentoo and systemd was one of the reasons.

And no, I don't really expect Gentoo to be something most people use. But to me that's the beauty of open source. If someone, or a group of people care enough, they can make it happen, if someone else finds it useful too doesn't necessarily matter.

Re: Linux greybeards release beta of systemd-free Debian fork

#13

Post by tmptmp »

mwfunk wrote: post #11
tmptmp wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are quite right, as the overall Debian's stance on systemd was far from praiseworthy. They allowed themselves to be pushed around too far by the "end-user" (desktop-users) mentality of the gnome and few such other upstreams. This is a very good news. Indeed it would have better if the Debian had been a little bit more flexible and sensible on this issue. Congrats Devuan folks! My heartfelt thanks too. Edit: added…

How dare they consider end users! What is the world coming to?!?

I am not against them considering the end users. But getting pushed around by "end-user" (please read desktop-user) focus is way too unacceptable behavior, especially for a community like Debian.

edit: added clarification for end-user.

Re: Linux greybeards release beta of systemd-free Debian fork

#14

Post by nailer »

Nursie wrote: post #10

I like systemd from the perspective of a service-writer/maintainer, the service files are nice and simple and don't have the repeated boilerplate of old init scripts. However I still dislike its monolithic nature, its folding in of journaling and udev, and all the rest of the creep.

Ditto the first part. I have a .service file for haproxy, one for my node app, one for rethinkdb, they generally just work.

I understand people that dislike monoliths, but I also appreciate the DRY nature of systemd - the System V, bash, cron, at, various process monitors, syslog combo was a lot of code with a lot of overlap. I'd expect systemd is actually smaller in LoC that what it replaced.

Re: Linux greybeards release beta of systemd-free Debian fork

#15

Post by sandGorgon »

tmptmp wrote: post #7
etiam wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem sort of is that (the rest of) Debian wouldn't work with them on this.

You are quite right, as the overall Debian's stance on systemd was far from praiseworthy. They allowed themselves to be pushed around too far by the "end-user" (desktop-users) mentality of the gnome and few such other upstreams. This is a very good news. Indeed it would have better if the Debian had been a little bit more flexible and sensible on this issue. Congrats Devuan folks! My heartfelt thanks too. Edit: added…

This is fairly untrue. If you had an opinion that you don't like systemd, that's perfectly OK...but to cast doubt on the fairly open (and very brutal) CTTE process to select systemd is very unfair.

IMHO it is always good to doubt the status quo..but to discredit the winning fight put up by systemd against Shuttleworth and Upstart is very biased. The technical tradeoffs in systemd may not be worth it to you... But it won on technical merit.

FWIW I can't wait to see the next Holy War around snap packages.

Re: Linux greybeards release beta of systemd-free Debian fork

#16

Post by ausjke »

Glad to see this coming out.

https://www.devuan.org

Downloading via torrent now, it's 10G via torrent? Anyways it seems the file server there is under pressure now.

I for one don't want to deal with systemd from the start. Never liked its intrusive, all-in-one, hard to debug design approach.

Re: Linux greybeards release beta of systemd-free Debian fork

#17

Post by cm3 »

One major problem with systemd is that beta software is released as stable and incorporated in distros. I've just realized that systemd-coredumpd is used to save crashes in the journal and write the files somewhere to /var.

This has the problem that I have to vacuum or nuke the journal if I want to remove knowledge of past crashes because coredumpctl tool has no delete command. And coredumpctl hard-codes GDB as the debugger.

To fix all of this I've overwritten the systctl.d file and made it write somewhere I know and can find without the use of an unfinished tool.

I have also regularly had it happen that bootup would intermittently hang up or shutdown as well. There are also unfixed warnings and errors during shutdown on multiple machines.

My conclusion is that systemd uses the broader population for beta testing, even if you don't follow Fedora Rawhide or Arch rolling.

Re: Linux greybeards release beta of systemd-free Debian fork

#18

Post by INTPenis »

I can't believe anyone would like to keep using sysvinit-scripts or RC-scripts.

I love bash, I love nitpicking about how to use bash along with the other bash nazis in #bash@freenode. But I would never put myself through sysvinit again. I thoroughly enjoy using distros like CentOS 7, Fedora 23, RHEL7. They're a joy to manage and work with, in part thanks to Systemd.

I never want to debug, troubleshoot, or even look at another sysvinit-script again. :)

Re: Linux greybeards release beta of systemd-free Debian fork

#19

Post by witty_username »

CSDude wrote: post #2

Init should be just this: http://git.suckless.org/sinit/tree/sinit.c , systemd incorparates too much funcitonality IMO, I cant get used to it. Well, but its a free world, I have even written a Go init, some guy did Rust based, and upstart is still being used by Ubuntu 14.04, I like choices, and happy to see this alternative as well.

> functionality

That is, actually doing the work of init i.e. spawning daemons and services.

Re: Linux greybeards release beta of systemd-free Debian fork

#20

Post by afarrell »

tmptmp wrote: post #13
mwfunk wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How dare they consider end users! What is the world coming to?!?

I am not against them considering the end users. But getting pushed around by "end-user" (please read desktop-user) focus is way too unacceptable behavior, especially for a community like Debian. edit: added clarification for end-user.

> getting pushed around by end-user focus is way too unacceptable behavior

why?

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