And now we have two problems! Yes its a problem to keep an old plane flying but it does the job. But the bigger problem is the turd costing us an arm and leg to build that doesn't do the job. Its so idiotic things have to be done in such a round about way. Just cancel the F-35 and spend the money on something useful to society.
The A-10 Warthog May Be Kept Out of Retirement by Law
31–40 of 117 posts
Re: The A-10 Warthog May Be Kept Out of Retirement by Law
#32This is something congress really shouldn't be doing. For example, how much of the scope ambition and scope creep for the F 35 came from congressional meddling? Someone recognized for their expertise in infantry strategy and tactics should be placed in charge of close air support procurement, given a preliminary budget to try to meet and then be given free reign to figure out what they can get from that budget.
Ever read USAF Col. John Boyd's biography? He developed of maneuver warfare and pretty much invented warfighter doctrine adopted by all the modern air forces around the world. He generalized his ideas, and it became a core part of US Marines doctrine. However, the generals in charge of the USAF rejected his ideas. In their minds, you have
Boyd was the one who pushed to developed the F-16 based around the ideas maneuver warfare. (The F-16 was designed to out-maneuver anything else). One of his disciple was the one that developed the A-10, specifically for close-air support mission, using the same principles applied in a different way.
CAS missions was something the USAF inherited back when the organization was part of the US Army. It's treated as the step-child that the USAF "bomber generals" don't want, and want to get rid of, and can't because that was part of the original agreement when the USAF was formed as a separate military organization. In their minds, if you develop a plane that can fly fast enough, stealthy enough, and click a button to shoot out missiles, then you don't need to be agile at all.
The politics around the A-10 is discussed thoroughly in Robert Coram's biography, "Boyd: The Fighter Pilot Who Changed The Art of War". Boyd has been dead for about 15 years now; what I'm reading here, the same politicking is still going on.
Re: The A-10 Warthog May Be Kept Out of Retirement by Law
#33Earlier quoted context omitted.
What would be reasonable is the Air Force pulling its head out its ass and just giving the CAS role back to the Army, since they hate it so much. Seriously, just give the Army the CAS roles, and the Air Force can go zoom around in their shiny supersonic invisible aircraft, and the soldiers and marines on the ground can get the close air support they so need from an organization not doing everything it can to stop giv…
x2. The marines do this for the most part.
In my experience, we got better support from Marine Supercobras in Iraq than any other air entity, and in Afghanistan A-10s. Theyve been talking about getting rid of Warthogs for years, but all the guys I talked to saw right through it and knew it was just to pad the Virginia old boys pockets some more. Of course Im biased, because Ive literally had my life saved by close air support from hogs.
Re: The A-10 Warthog May Be Kept Out of Retirement by Law
#34There should be parts of the armed services that are stuck in various decades. So you could join the 1980's air force for example, but you weren't allowed to use any equipment made after 1990. For each conflict the Pentagon would decide which decade's forces would be most effective.
Re: The A-10 Warthog May Be Kept Out of Retirement by Law
#35Why not scrap the USAF instead?
It all breaks down into mission support and drones in the long run? So why not scrap the organization that warps the strategic decisions ? Give everything ground mission related to the army, break everything that is strategic, as in supply, and the useless ICBMs of the sky to the new drone Department.
Re: The A-10 Warthog May Be Kept Out of Retirement by Law
#36They seem to be very popular with both pilots and ground crews so I say if the people risking their lives are comfortable with it then more power to them. I'm not going to arm-chair-general that away and neither should the law makers.
(They should be planning ahead though for replacement because that comfort won't last forever).
Re: The A-10 Warthog May Be Kept Out of Retirement by Law
#37This is something congress really shouldn't be doing. For example, how much of the scope ambition and scope creep for the F 35 came from congressional meddling? Someone recognized for their expertise in infantry strategy and tactics should be placed in charge of close air support procurement, given a preliminary budget to try to meet and then be given free reign to figure out what they can get from that budget.
Ever read USAF Col. John Boyd's biography? He developed of maneuver warfare and pretty much invented warfighter doctrine adopted by all the modern air forces around the world. He generalized his ideas, and it became a core part of US Marines doctrine. However, the generals in charge of the USAF rejected his ideas. In their minds, you have Boyd was the one who pushed to developed the F-16 based around the ideas maneuv…
The Key West Agreement isn't like the Constitution. Honestly, if CAS is important to the Army and Congress thinks the Army knows better than the Air Force how to handle CAS, then the Congress could (and if actually considered about effectiveness, should) transfer the mission, equipment, and personnel to the Army.
Re: The A-10 Warthog May Be Kept Out of Retirement by Law
#38How is it that a bunch of elected people without much military knowledge "know" more about these things than the men/women in uniform, with decades of experience?
The Airforce does not want the A-10 The Army and Marines are begging to keep it I trust the Army and Marines more than the fucking Airforce
The people that actually have to support and operate it don't want it, the people whose mission it supports but who don't bear the support burden do want it.
In each case, there are structural biases that favor those decisions even if they aren't right on balance.
Re: The A-10 Warthog May Be Kept Out of Retirement by Law
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why is that exactly? I love the A-10, and so does the Army and Marines, it is by far the best CAS weapon we have. The airforce knows more about aircraft and keeping those aircraft in the air than both the army and marines. Unfortunately the A-10 is old, and no one is manufacturing replacement parts for it. So as of right now the air force is happy with AC-130 gunship and the F-15E, F35. I hate the idea of the A-10 go…
You act as if it's somehow not easier to commission the remanufacture of parts for a well-understood plane than it is to manufacture a whole new, untested plane. Come on, seriously.
Having worked in requisitions, that's exactly how it works. Design new radar? "Here you go, have fifty parts!" Trying to get a power supply for a radar that's been around for sixty years? "Nope, no one's made those in forty years. Put the request into the system, and maybe we'll do a limited parts run in five years."
It makes sense if you're willing to contort your mind to military logic.
Re: The A-10 Warthog May Be Kept Out of Retirement by Law
#40Earlier quoted context omitted.
Tools != goals. The A-10 is not useful to the modern US military. If congress wants to fund something better great, but as it stands the A-10 is simply wasting Money. It's like congress is funding muskets from the revolutionary war.
As long as we're making comparisons to infantry weaponry, the M16 rifle is nine years older than the A-10 Warthog.
M16 has been replaced by the M4.
Some designs are so good they continue to be used actively eg the 1911 or M2. Variants of the original AK-47 are still used, even in Russia(!) where it is considered a superior weapon in urban warfare because it can penetrate cover better than more modern, smaller bullets.
I think the A-10's future potential is unclear. It is theoretically extremely vulnerable to modern anti-air missiles, but the same thing could be said about the Hind helicopter, which was deployed successfully by the RUAF in Syria.