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GNU LibreJS

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Re: GNU LibreJS

#51

To me it would seam this boils down to a philosophical issue regarding what is information and what is code, and i guess ownership of information. If someone gives me something directly (like a book or information in a conversation) without a disclaimer or some sort of contract. I would assume it is now mine and i assume the law does to. And from my perspective getting a response from a http server is the same thing…

Nope. Viewing a website is much like watching a broadcast tv show.

Copyright, in most countries, is granted implicitly to the creator, meaning you don't automatically get to 'own' any content from my website.

Re: GNU LibreJS

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking this too. You can read the HTML and CSS of any website, but there's likely no licensing information attached to it. And you'll never see the server side code of most websites. What's the reason that's not considered a problem? Is it because it's not actually running on the user's computer? Or because you can think of the resulting HTML/CSS as output of the program?

> What's the reason that's not considered a problem It's considered a problem: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-se...

> The original idea of web servers wasn't to do computing for you, it was to publish information for you to access. Even today this is what most web sites do, and it doesn't pose the SaaSS problem, because accessing someone's published information isn't doing your own computing.

The more grey area that exists the harder it is for me to understand what Stallman's beliefs actually are. "doing your own computing", why is that the center of his moral beliefs?

The longer time passes, the more it feels like Stallman is holding a lifelong vendetta because he had trouble debugging some printers.

Re: GNU LibreJS

#53

To me it would seam this boils down to a philosophical issue regarding what is information and what is code, and i guess ownership of information. If someone gives me something directly (like a book or information in a conversation) without a disclaimer or some sort of contract. I would assume it is now mine and i assume the law does to. And from my perspective getting a response from a http server is the same thing…

Yeah, that's not how it works. Copyright applies without notice (and even without intent). And as much as I disregard "Terms of Service" that some websites post (you may not deep-link...), I see that I can't construct the server's response as any sort of agreement to terms favourable to me.

Re: GNU LibreJS

#54
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the point is that RMS is against complex Javascript apps at all. His point is: a) If it makes an AJAX request, it likely is a piece of software (a web app) more than it is a webpage. b) If it is software, then he (and the people using this) care about it being free software. I use and have made proprietary web apps, yet I wouldn't disagree with RMS on the argument that such apps leave less control to th…

Blocking the JS is great and makes complete sense. It's like a slightly more open NoScript, in that it tries to analyze the JS first. The part I take issue with is that LibreJS adds a "Complaint" feature[1] that asks users to contact the web developers to ask them to change their pages. Should people really be emailing Google and asking them to disable AJAX in their Gmail application? Or Twitter's automatic feed upda…

No, people 'should' (according to this view) be emailing Google and asking them to release their client webapp as free software, after which they can continue using all the AJAX they want. If by some miracle they agreed, it would give users a number of advantages including:

- Making customization (Greasemonkey etc.) easier by removing the need for customization tools to muddle through JS minification/obfuscation. While in practice various tools today are doing a good job customizing Gmail anyway, I imagine they could make more changes and more invasive changes with access to the source.

- Special case: making client-side encryption browser extensions safe. Right now they are fundamentally unsafe (if they hook into the webapp rather than providing a separate interface), because there is nothing stopping Google from quietly adding some JS code to grab and report the plaintext before it gets encrypted. By itself, releasing the webapp's source wouldn't fix this because you would still have to trust Google's servers to send the same JS to everyone - but a browser extension could be enhanced to hash the page JS and refuse to operate with non-approved hashes, combined with a process where someone outside of Google manually approves changes as they are released, providing at least cursory review. Nobody wants to review obfuscated code.

- Allowing users to detect and remove any other forms of tracking/deanonymization that might be present such as mouse cursor or keystroke recording, canvas fingerprinting, etc., more reliably than with the sorts of purely technical measures that could be implemented in a browser (since these things are hard to block without preventing the app from doing its job).

- The kicker: Allowing the same webapp to be used with a different backend, so if you don't want Google to have access to your email, or don't trust them not to cripple functionality in the future, or need a lot of storage and can get it cheaper elsewhere, or are in China and have an (intentionally) shitty censored connection to the international internet, ... the list goes on... then you can self-host it, without losing the familiar interface. You can also host your own clone service for others to use, perhaps forking off the original code when Google makes an unpopular change, as they are wont to do. Of course this requires someone to actually do the technical work of writing a suitable new backend for the client to talk to, and in the case of a fork to maintain a huge codebase (compare Palemoon and such), but without free software you can't even get started (legally).

Of course, Google might not be too happy about that last point. But rms's ideology has never been pragmatic about 'business needs' and such. It's concerned only for the users.

Twitter is a somewhat less traditional case: the case for free software is either less applicable or far more, depending on how strictly you define "free software". This is because unlike Gmail, which provides decent support for third party clients, Twitter has long cracked down on them in various arbitrary ways and enforced strict rules that prevent them from innovating on UI. Since one of the informally-defined 'freedoms' of free software is the ability to modify it, it should be possible to morph the official browser client into anything you want - even if that means keeping just the API access layer and building an entirely new UI on top - and continue to use it freely. Thus if Twitter changed their tune and actually dedicated themselves to these freedoms, that would imply starting to tolerate access by arbitrary client software, and users would hugely benefit. However, if for some reason Twitter were to hypothetically release their client under a free license - even under the GPL - while otherwise continuing with their current policies, it wouldn't affect the situation much. The license would at least allow third parties to check the source for Twitter's own API key and copy it into their own apps without exposing themselves to legal liability related to copyright/DMCA. But Twitter could still try to identify and block rogue clients, sue under the CFAA ('hacking' statute) for unauthorized access, ban the personal accounts of creators of rogue clients, etc.

Re: GNU LibreJS

#55
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I attended an RMS lecture about free software and the GNU movement. To me, RMS just seems to be too paranoid about "non-free" software to the point that it just seems impractical. He spoke about LibreJS and about why we should complain, but I wasn't really convinced due to the exact same reason you mentioned.

He usually says that we give up freedom in exchange of convenience. For example Facebook is convenient so, who cares about privacy ? I don't use LibreJS or plan to use it either, but I think his points are valid theoretically, implement them in our society is pretty hard but my point is, these libre tools being "impractical" doesn't invalidate the philosophical idea behind. I'd would call him idealist rather than a p…

Let's not forget that he's the impractical idealist who created gcc, bison, emacs, make, the GPL. I'd bet >70% of people here work with a complete or almost-completely free software stack. Thousands of startups were probably made possible by access to tools – not just because they couldn't afford it otherwise, but also because a large part of cs education depends on a 12-year old's ability to clone stuff on github.

Re: GNU LibreJS

#56
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just what the world needs. More bikeshedding about "offensive JavaScript". Offensive JS includes: "It makes an AJAX request or is loaded along with scripts that make an AJAX request" and "Calling methods with the square bracket notation" and "Using any other construct than a string literal with certain methods (Obj.write, Obj.createElement, …)." If it includes something like the above (which 99% of HTML framew…

> Calling methods with the square bracket notation > If it includes something like the above [...] and it doesn't have a free license statement, should people really complain about it? Why on earth would this project concern itself with the coding styles of the JS that the author prefers? Even if the site and/or JS is free software, why do things things matter? I mean, I get linting your own code, but linting the cod…

Where do you guys see the prohibition?

I've opened https://www.gnu.org/software/librejs/manual/librejs.html#ind... and see that having functions, doing AJAX requests, square brackets and the other stuff is what they use to distinguish between trivial JS code and non-trivial one. And it exactly makes sense - no one wants to stick a license over every trivial JS one-liner that's could be less of a program and more of configuration statements block. But those who care about free software don't want to run non-free programs. So, the heuristics.

But I really can't find anything like a ban on use of functions or AJAX requests, or something similarly ridiculous, that some comments here seem to imply.

Seriously, WTF?

Re: GNU LibreJS

#57

Apparently it adds a "Complain" tab to your browser when it detects offensive JavaScript: https://www.gnu.org/software/librejs/manual/librejs.html#Com...

> LibreJS includes a default subject line and body for the complaint email, with a link to the JavaScript Trap essay. If that's not some pedantic RMS bullshit, I don't know what is. At least it's easy enough for a spam filter to catch.

Funny enough, that spam filter was probably written in emacs, compiled with gcc & make and GPL-licenced :)

Re: GNU LibreJS

#58
I really want something like this, not for the freedom but for the battery savings.

I'd love to be able to automatically detect which bits of JS are needed and run them selectivity.

The added freedom and privacy are really nice, but I also need my laptop battery to last longer then a few hours.

Re: GNU LibreJS

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's just what the world needs. More bikeshedding You pretty much summed up one of the two biggest issues at why the FSF has not had a larger impact on the world. The organization makes issues over these kinds of details and then paints it into a "us vs. them" situation. It seems to have little interest with trying to work with people, and more insistent on making sure you follow it's dogma. The other issue is th…

The FSF has had a massive impact on the world. The constant discussion of how they should be presenting their message should be in the dictionary under bikeshedding. Maybe it isn't the way they're presenting their message; maybe you just don't agree with them.

> The FSF has had a massive impact on the world.

It has? I'll accept that only for the conception of FLOSS. However, I would then say that the OSI and Linux Foundations have had greater impact. They relied on the RMS's license, but they have actually managed to make inroads, whereas the FSF has stayed in it's corner, shouting.

> maybe you just don't agree with them.

What I don't agree with is the all or nothing attitude they have. The ability to know when to compromise is crucial to working with people.

Re: GNU LibreJS

#60

Classic case of GPL Nazism!! RMS was relevant in a world where Microsoft was a monopoly, arm-twisting the competition, including open source, into submission. But today, RMS despises all software that isn't GPL. He once argued for EMACS to not support LLVM/Clang as LLVM is licensed as (a more permissive) Apache-2. https://slashdot.org/story/15/02/08/210241/rms-objects-to-su...

you shouldn't use terms like "Nazism" so loosely. It makes it lose its denotative and connotative value. If you do, then what words will you have at your disposal if the real thing comes around?

Unless RMS is leveraging nationalism through racist policies and wants a strong police state or thinks mercantilism should replace capitalism, it's really not a very good label - save that for the real thing.

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