Steam now accepts Bitcoin for purchases • Hacker News Board

Re: Steam now accepts Bitcoin for purchases

#421

Post by krapp » Fri, Apr 29, 2016, 5:23 PM UTC

Frondo wrote: post #418

EdHominem wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Better start coding, except no one will accept your patches to bump up the 21 million bitcoin supply...not so democratic. That's a horrible change. But it's a perfect example of the ultimate democracy. Everyone has the freedom to listen to you, they're choosing not to.

Well done. You've just demonstrated the breach with reality in Bitcoin-land that is most personally irritating to me--the conflation of democracy with consensus/mob rule. Democracy isn't (and never was) just "majority preference that is inferred from behavior". It's the regular, structured process of checking in and putting the rules that affect people up to a group decision, i.e. voting on stuff on a regular basis,…

Of course, what anarcho-capitalist cypherpunks mean when they talk about "democracy" is fundamentally different than what everyone else means. From that point of view, consensus as dictated by the free market is probably the only legitimate form of democracy.

Re: Steam now accepts Bitcoin for purchases

#422

Post by bduerst » Fri, Apr 29, 2016, 5:48 PM UTC

VMG wrote: post #384

bduerst wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A cure-cancer PoW where each block fixes all of cancer is ridiculous. A more apt analogy would be that each block would solve a protein folding or active site matching problem for cancer. Then each solution would be public, and useless to mine over again.

It was hyperbole. It's the same deal in your example: if the is a PoW reward outside the currency, the cost of mining on the wrong chain drops. The PoW must only be useful for the coin you are mining and nothing rise.

Except the miners don't gain value from discovering a protein fit, so they have no incentive to mine the wrong chain.

Even then, as long as the coin value is larger you will have a consensus with the miners to to mine the latest block. Any sidechains will be neglected, which is why this "no value or nothing" attitude doesn't fit a blockchain network.

Re: Steam now accepts Bitcoin for purchases

#423

Post by bduerst » Fri, Apr 29, 2016, 5:50 PM UTC

VMG wrote: post #386

bduerst wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their point is that the PoW is wasteful because the redundant work is useless. See primecoin.io for an example of more useful PoW.

So in primecoin I can mine on any block and generate a useful byproduct? What stops me from attacking that network by mining on my private chain with a double spend? I have no opportunity cost.

That's because if it was valuable to you as a miner it would incentivize you to mine the wrong chain.

Network value is different from individual value.

Re: Steam now accepts Bitcoin for purchases

#424

Post by VMG » Fri, Apr 29, 2016, 6:00 PM UTC

bduerst wrote: post #422

VMG wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was hyperbole. It's the same deal in your example: if the is a PoW reward outside the currency, the cost of mining on the wrong chain drops. The PoW must only be useful for the coin you are mining and nothing rise.

Except the miners don't gain value from discovering a protein fit, so they have no incentive to mine the wrong chain. Even then, as long as the coin value is larger you will have a consensus with the miners to to mine the latest block. Any sidechains will be neglected, which is why this "no value or nothing" attitude doesn't fit a blockchain network.

> Except the miners don't gain value from discovering a protein fit, so they have no incentive to mine the wrong chain.

Well then they are doing useless work too, and the criticism of wasteful mining applies. You gain value from doing useful things.

Re: Steam now accepts Bitcoin for purchases

#425

Post by VMG » Fri, Apr 29, 2016, 6:02 PM UTC

taejo wrote: post #397

VMG wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So in primecoin I can mine on any block and generate a useful byproduct? What stops me from attacking that network by mining on my private chain with a double spend? I have no opportunity cost.

> What stops me from attacking that network by mining on my private chain with a double spend? Nothing stops you mining on a private chain, but since you have a small minority of the compute power, the network doesn't care about your private chain. The same is true in Bitcoin. > I have no opportunity cost. You could be mining blocks that generate useful byproducts and currency.

> Nothing stops you mining on a private chain, but since you have a small minority of the compute power, the network doesn't care about your private chain.

Right, this is not an issue for small miners. But if you have a significant part of mining power, it's important that there is a significant opportunity cost mining on the wrong chain. That can only be ensured by using a PoW that is wasteful outside the currency you're mining.

Re: Steam now accepts Bitcoin for purchases

#426

Post by bduerst » Fri, Apr 29, 2016, 7:48 PM UTC

VMG wrote: post #424

bduerst wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except the miners don't gain value from discovering a protein fit, so they have no incentive to mine the wrong chain. Even then, as long as the coin value is larger you will have a consensus with the miners to to mine the latest block. Any sidechains will be neglected, which is why this "no value or nothing" attitude doesn't fit a blockchain network.

> Except the miners don't gain value from discovering a protein fit, so they have no incentive to mine the wrong chain. Well then they are doing useless work too, and the criticism of wasteful mining applies. You gain value from doing useful things.

Protein fit is only useless for the miners, but they have coin rewards on completion, so the work on new blocks isn't useless to them.

You do understand how a blockchain works, right?

Re: Steam now accepts Bitcoin for purchases

#427

Post by VMG » Fri, Apr 29, 2016, 8:40 PM UTC

bduerst wrote: post #426

VMG wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except the miners don't gain value from discovering a protein fit, so they have no incentive to mine the wrong chain. Well then they are doing useless work too, and the criticism of wasteful mining applies. You gain value from doing useful things.

Protein fit is only useless for the miners, but they have coin rewards on completion, so the work on new blocks isn't useless to them. You do understand how a blockchain works, right?

You picked protein fit as an example of useful PoW. How can you now claim it's useless?

Re: Steam now accepts Bitcoin for purchases

#428

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Apr 29, 2016, 8:40 PM UTC

bduerst wrote: post #426

VMG wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except the miners don't gain value from discovering a protein fit, so they have no incentive to mine the wrong chain. Well then they are doing useless work too, and the criticism of wasteful mining applies. You gain value from doing useful things.

Protein fit is only useless for the miners, but they have coin rewards on completion, so the work on new blocks isn't useless to them. You do understand how a blockchain works, right?

[deleted]

Re: Steam now accepts Bitcoin for purchases

#429

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Apr 29, 2016, 8:59 PM UTC

bduerst wrote: post #426

VMG wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except the miners don't gain value from discovering a protein fit, so they have no incentive to mine the wrong chain. Well then they are doing useless work too, and the criticism of wasteful mining applies. You gain value from doing useful things.

Protein fit is only useless for the miners, but they have coin rewards on completion, so the work on new blocks isn't useless to them. You do understand how a blockchain works, right?

[deleted]

Re: Steam now accepts Bitcoin for purchases

#430

Post by Houshalter » Sat, Apr 30, 2016, 10:51 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #395

Houshalter wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>are you honestly suggesting that reductions in consumption and spending are favorable to nation's economy? Yes absolutely. All the economy does is just allocate resources. If some area of the economy is consuming more, than that is coming at the expense of other areas of the economy. Likewise if spending in one area is cut, that leaves resources available for other things. That's all supply and demand is. Prices inc…

Economics, like physics, scales messily. If the whole world decided to save everything for one year starting today, the economy would free fall. Since nobody is consuming, nobody need produce. Factories grind to a halt and deteriorate, social bonds and casual knowledge fade, and the world returns a year later materially worse off.

Yes and it should. The economy isn't a static thing. It should adapt based on demand. If suddenly demand went down, then prices would fall until they were low enough that the remaining supply can be sold off.