At Chobani, Now It’s Not Just the Yogurt That’s Rich • Hacker News Board

Re: At Chobani, Now It’s Not Just the Yogurt That’s Rich

#81

Post by CydeWeys » Thu, Apr 28, 2016, 8:13 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #43

CydeWeys wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm just surprised that you're surprised that a large number of people are involved in the manufacturing and distribution of a physical good. If you think 2,000 employees is a lot, wait until you see how many employees a company like Ford has. I think your mind is a little bit stuck in the SF bubble.

> I think your mind is a little bit stuck in the SF bubble. I'm sure you meant no harm, but please don't make unfounded personal comments like that. They have a high probability of being taken ill and provoking defensive reactions. And they add no information, except perhaps information about the commenter's assumptions.

I don't think it's that personal. I've had people point out to me before that my thinking was a bit divorced from reality, and it was really helpful to be told that in no uncertain terms. Actually, some of the very best advice or information that anyone has ever given me. Yes, it was tough to be on the end of a blunt message like that in that moment, but over time I've realized that it was definitely worth it.

The reality of the situation is that there are at least thousands of different large-scale manufacturers worldwide across all possible industries that employ thousands of employees on up each. This is basically the history of the industrial/manufacturing revolution that we're talking about here. This should be common knowledge, and if it's not, the most helpful solution is to go learn more about it. NO OTHER industry is like software engineering, where all it can take is a dozen hackers to yield a billion dollar startup. Reacting in surprise that there exists a single manufacturing company of that scale in employee count, when in fact there are thousands, indicates that yes, you might be in a bubble.

Re: At Chobani, Now It’s Not Just the Yogurt That’s Rich

#82

Post by eru » Fri, Apr 29, 2016, 2:17 AM UTC

downandout wrote: post #70

eru wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with most of what you say in terms of valuable strategy to keep your employees happy and loyal. From an ethical point of view, outsourcing is great. It provides jobs for people in poor countries.

>From an ethical point of view, outsourcing is great. It provides jobs for people in poor countries. I disagree. Even in today's global economy, the country in which a business is based seems to have a significant effect on its prospects. In 2014, 19% of US households with children were food insecure , and 46.8 million people were in poverty [1]. Given the widespread poverty right here in the US, is it ethical for US…

Not all companies are based in the US in the first place. People worry about outsourcing in other countries, too.

Re: At Chobani, Now It’s Not Just the Yogurt That’s Rich

#83

Post by eru » Fri, Apr 29, 2016, 2:18 AM UTC

sooheon wrote: post #73

aetherson wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Your two arguments appear to be: 1. There is poverty in the US. Of course there is. But there is much worse and much more widespread poverty in nearly every other country in the world. 2. Companies "benefit to at least some degree from being based in the US." They also benefit to at least some degree from the economic participation of hundreds of other countries. Even if "that poor person in Asia hasn't done any…

To your point 1, some could argue: Yes, outsourcing employs poor people elsewhere, but at 1/100th the cost. So the overall transfer of wealth is reduced, and global wealth gap increased. Also, given the intricacies of economic development, it is debatable whether an influx of outsourced jobs and factories (which may feed workers, but hinder formation of local industries) is better for the poor of that country. Just p…

Is there any evidence outsourcing hinders, rather than helps formation of local industries?

As far as I remember, foreign direct investment has a pretty good track record in terms of helping countries develop. (As opposed to eg loans to businesses or government. Loans can plausibly lead to financial instability, when the hot money comes in and again when it leaves.)

Re: At Chobani, Now It’s Not Just the Yogurt That’s Rich

#84

Post by eru » Fri, Apr 29, 2016, 2:20 AM UTC

mooreds wrote: post #48

morgante wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This story reminds me tangentially of the time when Hewlett and Packard, when faced with a downturn at HP, decided to cut pay across the board so the company could avoid layoffs. It mystifies me that cutting pay instead of getting rid of deadweight is seen as noble or honorable. If I were working at HP, I would have quit the second they decided to cut my pay just so they could avoid needed firings.

> If I were working at HP, I would have quit the second they decided to cut my pay just so they could avoid needed firings. I sympathize with your viewpoint, but I think it depends on whether you see dead weight. If you are on a great team with no dead weight, a pay cut to keep everyone together would be far more palatable.

Especially, if you get backpay later, or get at least more equity to make up for the pay.

Even if that equity is depressed in value for a bit. `Bailing-in' creditors is actually a common technique for financially struggling companies. Employees are a kind of creditors.

Re: At Chobani, Now It’s Not Just the Yogurt That’s Rich

#85

Post by sooheon » Fri, Apr 29, 2016, 10:43 AM UTC

eru wrote: post #83

sooheon wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To your point 1, some could argue: Yes, outsourcing employs poor people elsewhere, but at 1/100th the cost. So the overall transfer of wealth is reduced, and global wealth gap increased. Also, given the intricacies of economic development, it is debatable whether an influx of outsourced jobs and factories (which may feed workers, but hinder formation of local industries) is better for the poor of that country. Just p…

Is there any evidence outsourcing hinders, rather than helps formation of local industries? As far as I remember, foreign direct investment has a pretty good track record in terms of helping countries develop. (As opposed to eg loans to businesses or government. Loans can plausibly lead to financial instability, when the hot money comes in and again when it leaves.)

I won't claim that it's empirically proven to be harmful, obviously there are so many intricacies in every case. However, I don't think it's clear that it's an obvious boon for the country either.

S. Korea's development, for example, has shown that export oriented growth, where the margins between international prices and local labor costs are enjoyed by the exporters, is one of the most powerful ways for an economy to grow. Outsourcing, OTOH, is guaranteed to funnel those margins back to the multinational, with little but the pittance wages and some nominal tariffs left behind for the people of the country.

Re: At Chobani, Now It’s Not Just the Yogurt That’s Rich

#86

Post by dang » Fri, Apr 29, 2016, 5:08 PM UTC

CydeWeys wrote: post #81

dang wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think your mind is a little bit stuck in the SF bubble. I'm sure you meant no harm, but please don't make unfounded personal comments like that. They have a high probability of being taken ill and provoking defensive reactions. And they add no information, except perhaps information about the commenter's assumptions.

I don't think it's that personal. I've had people point out to me before that my thinking was a bit divorced from reality, and it was really helpful to be told that in no uncertain terms. Actually, some of the very best advice or information that anyone has ever given me. Yes, it was tough to be on the end of a blunt message like that in that moment, but over time I've realized that it was definitely worth it. The re…

Indeed, I have too. But it's a far different operation on the internet, and if you're going to attempt it here, you need to provide clear differentiators from garden-variety personal abrasiveness, which is definitely going to be the default interpretation.

From a community point of view, if there's a nontrivial chance of generating an angry subthread, then the expected value of such a comment is negative. You can change that into a positive by putting more care into how you express your point. It's hard, but doable; there are users here who are good at it.

Re: At Chobani, Now It’s Not Just the Yogurt That’s Rich

#87

Post by CydeWeys » Sat, Apr 30, 2016, 1:04 AM UTC

BinaryIdiot wrote: post #55

potatolicious wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yogurt (or any manufactured food product, really) is surprisingly high in complexity... I'll echo the GP post - I'm a bit surprised at the amount of surprise. Maybe we need to be doing a better job of educating people about these things (or conversely, maybe we need to do a better job of sticking our heads outside our respective bubbles). Obviously cars and yogurt are not directly comparable, but I'd wager they have…

> I'll echo the GP post - I'm a bit surprised at the amount of surprise. Maybe we need to be doing a better job of educating people about these things (or conversely, maybe we need to do a better job of sticking our heads outside our respective bubbles). I get everything you're saying and as I said I am not in the same industry but I've taken cursory looks and 2,000 still seems high to me. But I'm not saying they're…

You're comparing employment at a single factory to employment at an entire company, though. There are lots of jobs at Chobani that aren't factory jobs. And Nabisco has a much higher total employment count as well.

I too would love to see a breakdown of exactly how big each department of a given company is. I have no reason to suspect that they employ significantly more people than necessary though; the profit motive gives good reason to avoid doing that.