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The Case Against Reality

theatlantic.com

21–30 of 114 posts

Re: The Case Against Reality

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they're symbols which accurately represent information to us in a useful fashion. Consider a supercomputer simulation of a brain - a completely accurate human mind (ignore the feasibility, this is a gedankenexperiment), which has completely accurate eyes, ears, etc. - a full sensorium. Consider that you place a completely accurate simulated beach ball in front of that mind. You, the external observer, know that t…

Unprovable, unable to generate predictions on nature: not science.

Eh? One can test every theory I've mentioned in there, and many, such as the holographic universe principle, currently are: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle#Experime...

Re: The Case Against Reality

#22
I've read this article twice now, and both times the same thought struck me. How much, really, are his "insights" much different from Plato's Allegory of Cave philosophy?

Plato has Socrates describe a gathering of people who have lived chained to the wall of a cave all of their lives, facing a blank wall. The people watch shadows projected on the wall from things passing in front of a fire behind them, and they begin to give names to these shadows[1]

Yes of course the details differ and the physics have drastically changed (invoking QM's probability wave functions as the the basis of the "shadows on the cave wall."), but the idea that all we observe isn't a true representation of reality is one of the oldest ideas in all of western philosophy.

It reminds of that old quote from Alfred North Whitehead, a preeminent 20th century figure..."All philosophy is a series of footnotes to Plato"

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave

Re: The Case Against Reality

#23
I get really suspicious when I see quantum physics used in this way. It seems like a misdirection. Given the information in the article, it's impossible to evaluate his claims--we don't have access to the computer models he uses, or the expertise to evaluate his proofs.

But there are a lot of gigantic red flags all throughout. Like when he says he's mathematically proved that "an organism that sees reality as it is will never be more fit than an organism of equal complexity that sees none of reality but is just tuned to fitness." But what it means to "see reality as it is" is exactly what's in question! How could he possibly create a mathematical proof of a concept that lacks a definition?

This gets even more blatant when he suggests, toward the end, that he's "postulating conscious experiences as ontological primitives." But that would mean that "seeing reality as it is" isn't even a coherent concept! If experience itself makes up reality, how could one's experiences not correspond to reality?

The guy is a crank. What he's arguing is a shoddy version of vitalism, dressed up in jargon.

Re: The Case Against Reality

#26
post #8

"Neurons, brains, space … these are just symbols we use, they’re not real." Such bullshit. Yes, they are symbols, but "just" symbols? They don't approximate reality at all? If so, how would he even know? Edit: Let me elaborate. Yes, it's possible the world is just one big movie set, and nothing is remotely what it seems to be. It's possible everything is just a dream. But this is among the most banal of ideas. We hav…

The funny thing is that we can measure reality with all kinds of instruments, and based on those measurements have been able to make theories (in the scientific meaning of the word) that have taken us to other planets of our solar system. So yeah, I'd say our perception of reality is pretty okay.

The point he makes is that those instruments and theories have an inherent bias to the kind of reality we perceive. That reality is a result of our evolutionary fitness and is not objective. Even the words we use to describe concepts are a function of the limitations our vocal cords and frontal lobe.

Related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pM3CptVZDYU

Re: The Case Against Reality

#27
The tiger don't care if you're on LSD. It will still eat you. And the universe don't need an observer for shit to happen. In 10 years I bet the current quantum theories /interpretations will make us laugh our asses off

Re: The Case Against Reality

#28

Okay, after thinking about this a bit longer, I would like to critique his argument. He asserts that we can prove that it is better for so-and-so to perceive according to "fitness" rather than according to "truth", and maintains this is true with mathematical rigor; fine. This is observably true (allowing me the possibility of observation for the space of this conversation) - predators, for example, usually have forw…

This is a very nice argument!

Our senses are still only tuned in to detect portions of "reality" that are relevant to life on earth. For example, our eyes detect the band of EM radiation most useful during daytime on Earth. But even though are eyes are narrow band and highly non-linear sensors, they (+our other equally flawed senses) have served us pretty well as far as understanding the true nature of EM waves.

I guess my point is that our senses still aren't evolving to detect reality in some sort of true pure mathematical sense.

Re: The Case Against Reality

#29

Okay, after thinking about this a bit longer, I would like to critique his argument. He asserts that we can prove that it is better for so-and-so to perceive according to "fitness" rather than according to "truth", and maintains this is true with mathematical rigor; fine. This is observably true (allowing me the possibility of observation for the space of this conversation) - predators, for example, usually have forw…

This is a very nice argument! Our senses are still only tuned in to detect portions of "reality" that are relevant to life on earth. For example, our eyes detect the band of EM radiation most useful during daytime on Earth. But even though are eyes are narrow band and highly non-linear sensors, they (+our other equally flawed senses) have served us pretty well as far as understanding the true nature of EM waves. I gu…

>evolving to detect reality in some sort of true pure mathematical sense.

I don't think this exists; a perfect description of reality IS reality. Let us contemplate our finitude and be humbled.

Re: The Case Against Reality

#30
The idea that the world is "nothing like" the one you experience through your senses is completely ... stupid.

What you experience through the senses is a valid aspect of the world, which is incomplete, but accurate within its limitations, and largely non-conflicting with other ways of observing which reveal other aspects.

Physics, quantum or otherwise, doesn't flat-out invalidate what you see around you.

Besides, all scientific instruments translate deeper observations which we cannot make with our senses into a representation available to our senses. (In some cases, just numbers which can be visualized, and often direct visualizations). A scientific instrument is in the world, and I can experience its output with my senses.

> Suppose there’s a blue rectangular icon on the lower right corner of your computer’s desktop — does that mean that the file itself is blue and rectangular and lives in the lower right corner of your computer? Of course not.

Of course not, because the file is blue, rectangular and lives in the lower right corner of your desktop. (The desktop isn't to be confused with the computer).

This is real; the aggregate digital object which includes the icon position and color, as well as other information such as a name, modification time stamp and content, does in fact have among its undeniable attributes that it's in the lower right corner of a virtual graphically visualized space known as a desktop and that its color is blue. The position, shape and color are merely not a complete set of its attributes.

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