Live data from Hacker News

The Case Against Reality

theatlantic.com

1–10 of 114 posts

Re: The Case Against Reality

#2
Great interview, but he spent his life studying this shit to get to where this book was, written in 1966: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Social_Construction_of_Rea...

Many of the ideas he's talking about are discussed therein; perception and "reality" is an assemblage of ideas, not an objective "truth" waiting to be discovered.

Re: The Case Against Reality

#3
Two things: 1.- It's very interesting that the brain+eye can't fix some perceptions, that's why it's impossible to _correctly_ see optical illusions like these: http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01121/same-color...

2.- ...it's fine as long as the future doesn't make us live in here: http://imgur.com/gallery/hD2Tm1O (Safe for work: it's a picture of Mark Zuckerberg and about 200 people using VR headsets, with the Matrix pods as background)

Re: The Case Against Reality

#4
There's a very interesting insight in the interview:

>Hoffman: Right. The classic argument is that those of our ancestors who saw more accurately had a competitive advantage over those who saw less accurately and thus were more likely to pass on their genes that coded for those more accurate perceptions, so after thousands of generations we can be quite confident that we’re the offspring of those who saw accurately, and so we see accurately. That sounds very plausible. But I think it is utterly false. It misunderstands the fundamental fact about evolution, which is that it’s about fitness functions—mathematical functions that describe how well a given strategy achieves the goals of survival and reproduction. The mathematical physicist Chetan Prakash proved a theorem that I devised that says: According to evolution by natural selection, an organism that sees reality as it is will never be more fit than an organism of equal complexity that sees none of reality but is just tuned to fitness. Never.

Which reminds me of this:

Origin of the Logical. — Where has logic originated in men's heads? Undoubtedly out of the illogical, the domain of which must originally lave been immense. But numberless beings who reasoned otherwise than we do at present, perished; albeit that they may have come nearer to truth than we!

Whoever, for example, could not discern the "like" often enough with regard to food, and with regard to animals dangerous to him, whoever, therefore, deduced too slowly, or was too circumspect in his deductions, had smaller probability of survival than he who in all similar cases immediately divined the equality.

The preponderating inclination, however, to deal with the similar as the equal — an illogical inclination, for there is nothing [100%] equal to another — created the whole basis of logic. It was just so (in order that the conception of [a shared] substance should originate, this being indispensable to logic, although in the strictest sense nothing actual corresponds to it) that for a long period the changing process in things had to be overlooked, and remain unperceived.

The beings not seeing correctly [and saw similar things as "same" and static] had an advantage over those who saw everything "in flux".

In itself every high degree of circumspection in conclusions, every sceptical inclination, is a great danger to life. No living being might have been preserved unless the contrary inclination — to affirm rather than suspend judgment, to mistake and fabricate rather than wait, to assent rather than deny, to decide rather than be in the right — had been cultivated with extraordinary assiduity.

The course of logical thought and reasoning in our modern brain corresponds to a process and struggle of impulses, which singly and in themselves are all very illogical and unjust ; we experience usually only the result of the struggle, so rapidly and secretly does this primitive mechanism now operate in us.

Friedrich Nietzsche, Gaya Scienza (with small edits in [] to make the passage clearer)

Re: The Case Against Reality

#5

Great interview, but he spent his life studying this shit to get to where this book was, written in 1966: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Social_Construction_of_Rea... Many of the ideas he's talking about are discussed therein; perception and "reality" is an assemblage of ideas, not an objective "truth" waiting to be discovered.

It's not just about the ideas -- it's about how they are explained and with what rigor.

The same way that 19th chemistry didn't "got where Democritus was" when he formulated his atomic theory -- it came to the same concept, yes, but what for him was just an idea put out there, for them it was a solid theory, with experiments, deductions made of it, etc.

Re: The Case Against Reality

#6
"Neurons, brains, space … these are just symbols we use, they’re not real."

Such bullshit. Yes, they are symbols, but "just" symbols? They don't approximate reality at all? If so, how would he even know?

Edit: Let me elaborate. Yes, it's possible the world is just one big movie set, and nothing is remotely what it seems to be. It's possible everything is just a dream. But this is among the most banal of ideas. We have only made progress as a species by identifying deep, universal consistencies that have proven more reliable than anything else we know. Various scientific revolutions do not change the fact that the game is the same: to account for our observations parsimoniously. Now this guys says, it's all "just" symbols. Such bullshit.

Re: The Case Against Reality

#7
post #5

Great interview, but he spent his life studying this shit to get to where this book was, written in 1966: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Social_Construction_of_Rea... Many of the ideas he's talking about are discussed therein; perception and "reality" is an assemblage of ideas, not an objective "truth" waiting to be discovered.

It's not just about the ideas -- it's about how they are explained and with what rigor. The same way that 19th chemistry didn't "got where Democritus was" when he formulated his atomic theory -- it came to the same concept, yes, but what for him was just an idea put out there, for them it was a solid theory, with experiments, deductions made of it, etc.

Nah - these are just the same ideas in a different intellectual framework, the level of rigor is only apparent because we're attuned to mathematical models as the best means of reasoning. It's just about what you accept as valid proof (math rather than sociology), I don't think they're actually more profound understandings of the underlying concept.

Re: The Case Against Reality

#8

"Neurons, brains, space … these are just symbols we use, they’re not real." Such bullshit. Yes, they are symbols, but "just" symbols? They don't approximate reality at all? If so, how would he even know? Edit: Let me elaborate. Yes, it's possible the world is just one big movie set, and nothing is remotely what it seems to be. It's possible everything is just a dream. But this is among the most banal of ideas. We hav…

The funny thing is that we can measure reality with all kinds of instruments, and based on those measurements have been able to make theories (in the scientific meaning of the word) that have taken us to other planets of our solar system.

So yeah, I'd say our perception of reality is pretty okay.

Post reply on HN