Being a Developer After 40 • Hacker News Board

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#561

Post by some-guy » Wed, Apr 27, 2016, 8:03 PM UTC

CamperZero wrote: post #531

some-guy wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no exact solution to these problems, and I will admit that affirmative action is more of a band-aid than anything else, but POC (I only speak for the US here) in general are worse off economically, have a criminal justice system that disproportionately incarcerates POC for similar non-violent crimes as whites through stop-and-frisk and racial profiling, are stripped of their voting rights The concept of white…

POC (I only speak for the US here) in general are worse off economically, have a criminal justice system that disproportionately incarcerates POC for similar non-violent crimes as whites through stop-and-frisk and racial profiling, are stripped of their voting rights The uncomfortable truth we need to be talking about is that POC commit a disproportionate amount of the crime in the US, and so nothing you said should…

The uncomfortable truth we need to be talking about is that POC commit a disproportionate amount of the crime in the US, and so nothing you said should come as a surprise.

Notice I said "for similar, non-violent crimes" and "disproportionate" [1]. It's true, poverty and crime are heavily correlated [2], and I live in a community where such crime exists at high rates (Downtown Oakland).

In fact thinking that these other cultures need our help because they are incapable of lifting themselves up without us is actually pretty condescending. It sounds a bit bigoted if you ask me.

The War on Drugs was created to incarcerate black people and hippies [3]. For crimes that more than 50% of my classmates and myself, have committed (possession of marijuana, dealing marijuana, various other drugs), extreme disproportionate incarceration has occurred in the US to POC at disproportionate rates[1]. Once incarcerated, getting back into society is an extremely difficult process, with voting rights being stripped away, with job opportunities scarce, with the mark of a felony on their criminal record. This contributes to a vicious cycle where these realities feed off of each other. It's no wonder then, that all these facts contribute to a never-ending snowball effect on these communities.

I really highly recommend the book The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander [4]. It does an amazing job describing this cycle. It's not that "other cultures need our help to stop committing crimes", it's that we all need to be aware of the effects our criminal justice system has on everyone.

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/09/30/white...

[2] http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5137

[3] http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-richa...

[4] http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindn...

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#562

Post by CamperZero » Thu, Apr 28, 2016, 12:11 AM UTC

some-guy wrote: post #561

CamperZero wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

POC (I only speak for the US here) in general are worse off economically, have a criminal justice system that disproportionately incarcerates POC for similar non-violent crimes as whites through stop-and-frisk and racial profiling, are stripped of their voting rights The uncomfortable truth we need to be talking about is that POC commit a disproportionate amount of the crime in the US, and so nothing you said should…

The uncomfortable truth we need to be talking about is that POC commit a disproportionate amount of the crime in the US, and so nothing you said should come as a surprise. Notice I said "for similar, non-violent crimes" and "disproportionate" [1]. It's true, poverty and crime are heavily correlated [2], and I live in a community where such crime exists at high rates (Downtown Oakland). In fact thinking that these oth…

Notice I said "for similar, non-violent crimes" and "disproportionate"

The article you linked said blacks were being disproportionately arrested because they were selling outdoors, whereas whites were selling indoors. Assuming it is true though, are we really going to pretend that it's simply the difference in skin color and has nothing to do with a culture that glorifies criminal behavior, disregards the rule of law and preys on larger society. If these antisocial subcultures were distributed evenly between the races then we wouldn't even be having this conversation. The unfortunate and uncomfortable fact is that they are more prevalent in specific minorities. But the fact that we can't even talk about this in a straight forward and rational way exacerbates the problem.

I'll give you that historical prejudice has played a huge role though. Historical being the key word. I am completely with you on ending the War on Drugs. If we spent a fraction of our energy on that as opposed to promoting these toxic identity politics, then maybe we would have actually made some progress by now. Despite all of our best intentions, race relations are getting worse and nobody seems to know why. Hmm.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#563

Post by ElComradio » Thu, Apr 28, 2016, 12:35 AM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #530

ElComradio wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's simply intractable to add up everyone's advantages and disadvantages; it's the wrong path to focus on group attributes/trends when you start talking about individuals. I could clamor for tall rich sportsmen to "send the elevator down for me". That it's their responsibility and so on. What you should do is reflect on exactly why you'd think I should feel silly for saying that, and the other guy to not. Would you…

It's simply intractable to add up everyone's advantages and disadvantages Sure. it's the wrong path to focus on group attributes/trends when you start talking about individuals. Absolute nonsense. If a particular school had a 30% graduation rate while every other school in the state averaged 80%, would you say, "Wait a minute! It's the wrong path to talk about this school in particular. These are individual kids..."…

I'm not sure what you are getting at with your school example. 20% of students from school B aren't graduating; 70% of students from school A aren't graduating. If you institute some program that leads to one new kid graduating, who cares if it's in school A or B?

Gross inequalities between groups _can_ exist, but that tells us _nothing_ about any particular individual within the group, only that individual's chances _when no other information is available_. But other information _is_ available when looking at an individual.

You seem to be suggesting we somehow theoretically add up all one's advantages and disadvantages- But that means... Considering the individual. Great, I agree. Since we are doing that, phrases such as "recognize your male privilege" mean nothing to an individual male, because it is very possible that individual male has severe disadvantages that make singling out the maleness aspect ridiculous- It would be like telling a minority male shot by a cop to reflect on his privilege of not generally facing sexism like a woman does (setting aside that a "male" privilege here is actually a disadvantage, but you get the idea).

In general people have an obligation to help the less fortunate, I agree.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#564

Post by empthought » Thu, Apr 28, 2016, 1:23 AM UTC

kelukelugames wrote: post #536

empthought wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How the heck is that a valid criticism of feminism? Feminism is intended to remedy the injustices of the hierarchical arrangement of men and women. That's literally all it is for. One may as well criticize La Raza for not addressing the oppression of Tibetans in China. We already have isms that address class issues; they're called Marxism and socialism. Feminism isn't the mommy ideology that has to welcome all into i…

Are you familiar with the history of feminism? First wave and second wave of feminism were both coopted by upper middle class white women. Third wave, the current one, pays some attention to intersectionality, but mainstream feminism doesn't challenge the status quo enough. That's why there is backlash against Sheryl Sandberg's Lean In. A quote from the wiki page: "Black feminism is a school of thought which argues t…

Seems like you're not familiar with the history, yourself.

First and second wave feminism weren't coopted by upper middle class white women, they were founded by upper middle class white women. You can't get more white middle class than Anthony, Friedan, de Beauvoir et al.

Not that Wikipedia is a particularly good source, but your own link includes the sentence "Feminism at its core is a movement to abolish the inequalities women face" which is exactly what I said. A poor boy with troubles in Appalachia is tragic, to be sure, but is not any sort of feminist concern.

Intersectionality isn't a just way to garble up different justice concerns and call it "feminism." Intersectionality comes from the intersection of the axes of oppression on e.g. a black woman. The axes of oppression on a poor white man exist, but have little to do with feminism. This person lives in the privileged position under patriarchy, full stop.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#565

Post by kelukelugames » Thu, Apr 28, 2016, 2:26 AM UTC

empthought wrote: post #564

kelukelugames wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you familiar with the history of feminism? First wave and second wave of feminism were both coopted by upper middle class white women. Third wave, the current one, pays some attention to intersectionality, but mainstream feminism doesn't challenge the status quo enough. That's why there is backlash against Sheryl Sandberg's Lean In. A quote from the wiki page: "Black feminism is a school of thought which argues t…

Seems like you're not familiar with the history, yourself. First and second wave feminism weren't coopted by upper middle class white women, they were founded by upper middle class white women. You can't get more white middle class than Anthony, Friedan, de Beauvoir et al. Not that Wikipedia is a particularly good source, but your own link includes the sentence "Feminism at its core is a movement to abolish the inequ…

I'm confused. Am I being trolled? You are using words that I agree with but you sound like you want an argument.

Of course poor white men benefit from the racist patriarchy, but HN gets upset if you say that bluntly.

You seem to disagree that feminism needs to be intersectional? That's fine. A lot of people participate in white feminism, but many feminist leaders believe capitalism, racism, and sexism have to be tackled together.

https://www.quora.com/Does-Gloria-Steinem-think-that-capital...

https://www.quora.com/How-do-you-feel-about-the-rise-of-inte...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_Theory:_From_Margin_t...

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#566

Post by j4kp07 » Thu, Apr 28, 2016, 6:26 AM UTC

kaitai wrote: post #532

j4kp07 wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can swear, or dress in second-hand clothes or not answer letters without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty, or the illiteracy of my race. You've never heard of "White Trash" or "Rednecks" (a.k.a Bogans in Australia) or how "uneducated" the South is in America (nevermind that Alabama outranks California in graduation ranks)? > I am never asked to speak for all the people of my ra…

As you are happy to point out, no one asked me to :)

And yet you avoided answering my analogy with "White Trash", "Rednecks" and "Bogans". Why is that?

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#567

Post by j4kp07 » Thu, Apr 28, 2016, 6:39 AM UTC

kaitai wrote: post #535

j4kp07 wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No one is attacking your grandfather. The previous poster said "your grandparents". A narrow minded assumption that every white person reading his comment would/should identify with. > The previous poster is simply pointing out the better mortgage rates many white Americans of his generation would have received as a direct result of the racist culture. Then quit complaining to the current generation(s). Grow up, st…

Redlining is part of the immense capital transfer from blacks to hashtag-not-all-whites that America is famous for. Understanding this capital transfer is useful in considering why economic inequality persists today -- and you can certainly use it to figure out why parts of Appalachia and the South have such poor white populations as well. It sounds like you're pretty emotional about your grandparents' life, and that…

> Why say that the Armenians are still allowed to be traumatized about what happened in the 1920s while black Americans aren't allowed to talk about mortgages in the 1980s? It just isn't very logical.

It wasn't logic...it was sarcasm. The Armenians have moved on with their lives and recognize that people are not guilty for the sins of our great-grandfathers and great-grandmothers.

You want to talk about mortgages in the 1980s? Great...and like I asked the last person..."So now what?" We tried sub-prime mortgages to combat that and look where that got us in 2008.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#568

Post by j4kp07 » Thu, Apr 28, 2016, 6:45 AM UTC

kaitai wrote: post #533

j4kp07 wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> look at the great rates on home mortgages your grandparents got (if they're white Americans) I am a "white American" and my grandfather grew up in a home with dirt floors then built his home with his own hands (twice, because his first home burned down). Quit making such pompous assumptions.

Sounds like he didn't get a mortgage. Again, why are you taking this personally or as an attack on your character?

Sounds like he has bad credit and not enough for a down payment. Why are you shouting racism?

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#569

Post by j4kp07 » Thu, Apr 28, 2016, 6:50 AM UTC

interpol_p wrote: post #523

j4kp07 wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LMAO....you literally just said prior to this comment: "We are not trying to ensure there is an "arbitrary number" of certain types of people working in our field." You are a walking Poster Child for hypocrisy.

How does sharing such stats imply achieving "arbitrary numbers" in any sense? I am pointing at data showing a large disparity in tech employment relative to the population. Women are equally as capable as men when it comes to tech, so we should expect equal representation. We don't get equal representation because of existing cultural biases against women in this field. It's the same reason we don't get equal represe…

> How does sharing such stats imply achieving "arbitrary numbers" in any sense?

Are you really that ignorant?

> Women are equally as capable as men when it comes to tech, so we should expect equal representation.

And why are there not more women collecting trash or sweeping our streets (90% male)?

And why are there not more men teaching our children in K-12 (80% female)? Obviously men are just as capable and just as smart.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#570

Post by YeGoblynQueenne » Thu, Apr 28, 2016, 9:12 AM UTC

flexie wrote: post #552

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume that means you get a Denmark sort of price for your software. Yet you pay your developers a Bulgarian sort of wage. I don't want to moralise, but in this case I don't see how I can avoid the conclusion that you're basically ripping them off. So I'll just stop here 'cause I don't like to moralise- but I'll just say that I'd never work under such conditions.

I thought it was the nature of business to sell at higher prices than you buy. Feel free to moralise but try to live up to it yourself: Don't buy anything produced in parts of the world where people make less than you. Buying employees or services or products are the same, you know. With virtually zero percent unemployment for developers in Sofia, need for programmers everywhere in Europe, no visa-requirement prevent…

The thing is that I don't have much choice when it comes to, say, electronics or the clothes I wear and so on, but I'm not the person who employs the people who make those things directly and I don't profit from their work. In fact, if you think of it this way, if I pay £15 for a cardigan made in Bangladesh by a woman who gets paid £5 a week for her work, I'm getting ripped off also. Why am I not paying pennies for it, if that's what her work is worth to whomever is selling it to me?

Your position, however is different than mine. In your case there's noone forcing you to not share a bigger part of your profits with the people you employ. The choice is all yours.

You maximise your profit. Fair enough. But that brings us back to my original comment. In a free market economy, everybody is maximising their profits. For low-wage workers that means minimising the quality of their work, and I don't see any way out of it, if you agree that everyone is a rational player.

The alternative is that you're hiring complete idiots, which also works to your detriment, considering they're expected to work with their brains.