We aren't your slaves. We can't be "poached" If you want our services, offer us a better value than your competitors.
CMU’s computer science dean on its poaching problem
31–40 of 57 posts
Re: CMU’s computer science dean on its poaching problem
#32Earlier quoted context omitted.
CMU professor here. Currently on leave at Google for the 2015-16 academic year, returning in August. (Not, in my case, for the money - I actually left a startup I co-founded a few months before it was acquired because I decided that I'd probably learn more at Google. Ask me in a few years if I regret leaving that money on the table -- but thus far, I'm exceptionally glad about the decision. Having a total blast. Sabb…
Hi, dga! I took 15-440 under you! Wasn't a very good student, though. Just wanted to say hi and all the best in your sabbatical!
Hi and thanks! Hope post-440 life is going well. :)
Re: CMU’s computer science dean on its poaching problem
#33Earlier quoted context omitted.
In computer science, your criticisms are very very valid for graduate students: they make ~30k/year when they could be making ~200k/year at, say, Google, and they usually have less autonomy than a professor. But they don't really apply to tenure-track faculty. If grad school is already a sunk cost for you, (or it was valuable to you in other non-monetary areas), a tenure-track position can actually be quite a lucrati…
Is it really that easy to enter finance at that level (or at all), or even get a job at Google for $200k/year? I don't think it's that automatic unless your background is one that includes the "correct" college, an affluent background, and more. Many people end up pursuing an advanced degree in this field because they want to break into a new industry, make themselves more appealing to employers and make more money.…
> Is it really that easy to enter finance at that level (or at all), or even get a job at Google for $200k/year?
Yes. from personal experience, if you can get into a good graduate program, you can also get an offer from {google,amazon,microsoft} for $150-$200. the predicate "get into a good graduate program" means you have a CS degree with a decent GPA from a well considered school and some research experience, which usually translates into some kind of job experience that you can talk up in your interview.
Re: CMU’s computer science dean on its poaching problem
#34Academia in general is screwing itself. The main reason for anyone to go into it is to work on interesting problems in a self-directed fashion with amazing job security. You probably wouldn't get rich, but you'll have a nice upper-middle class salary and almost no way of getting fired. Now the available tenure-track positions are declining every year in favor of adjunct quasi-slave labor. Even if you do win the lotte…
Honest question: where do you learn advanced stuff if not in a graduate school? Academia undoubtedly sucks if one mainly takes money or career prospects into account. But among people who do challenging and sexy stuff (including in the industry) phd seems to be the norm, not the exception. One might object that phd has become unnecessary because nowadays all the relevant information is online but learning without the help of a community and a mentor is hard.
Re: CMU’s computer science dean on its poaching problem
#35As an aside, the use of the term "poaching" always bugged me. It implies that an employee is owned by a company like some deer in the King's forest.
This term was created by companies paying low salaries and being puzzled that employees are going to companies that pay more.
I had a manager that would get red-faced mad when talking about people the company would pay to go get some certification, and couldn't understand that "loyalty" wasn't enough to prevent that person from taking a higher paying job that the certification earned.
Re: CMU’s computer science dean on its poaching problem
#36Earlier quoted context omitted.
In computer science, your criticisms are very very valid for graduate students: they make ~30k/year when they could be making ~200k/year at, say, Google, and they usually have less autonomy than a professor. But they don't really apply to tenure-track faculty. If grad school is already a sunk cost for you, (or it was valuable to you in other non-monetary areas), a tenure-track position can actually be quite a lucrati…
Is it really that easy to enter finance at that level (or at all), or even get a job at Google for $200k/year? I don't think it's that automatic unless your background is one that includes the "correct" college, an affluent background, and more. Many people end up pursuing an advanced degree in this field because they want to break into a new industry, make themselves more appealing to employers and make more money.…
> Is it really that easy to enter finance at that level (or at all), or even get a job at Google for $200k/year?
I think it is when you condition on the fact that someone is a professor at Berkeley/CMU. Roughly 5% of applicants are accepted to top PhD programs, and less than 20% of people with PhDs at top universities (like Berkeley/CMU) get tenure track positions. Of those with tenure track positions, a minority (So the professors at Berkeley/CMU are well into the top 1% of people with computer science degrees, which makes it entirely plausible that their next best alternative is getting a high level finance/tech job.
Re: CMU’s computer science dean on its poaching problem
#37As an aside, the use of the term "poaching" always bugged me. It implies that an employee is owned by a company like some deer in the King's forest.
Not really. It originated to describe high level employees who take a job and then exploit their personal network to hire away friends. This is super-common and expected, and is also the reason non-competes became popular. It wasn't until later, the tech boom, that "poaching" was repurposed to be more generalized luring of high potential employees from wherever using whatever ($, perks) means available.
I always thought the scenario they meant to describe was something like, I work for Company A, and Company B makes some partnership with them to deliver some product, but then I'm the main guy so Company B just hires me away
Re: CMU’s computer science dean on its poaching problem
#38Earlier quoted context omitted.
In computer science, your criticisms are very very valid for graduate students: they make ~30k/year when they could be making ~200k/year at, say, Google, and they usually have less autonomy than a professor. But they don't really apply to tenure-track faculty. If grad school is already a sunk cost for you, (or it was valuable to you in other non-monetary areas), a tenure-track position can actually be quite a lucrati…
Is it really that easy to enter finance at that level (or at all), or even get a job at Google for $200k/year? I don't think it's that automatic unless your background is one that includes the "correct" college, an affluent background, and more. Many people end up pursuing an advanced degree in this field because they want to break into a new industry, make themselves more appealing to employers and make more money.…
> Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I don't have a computer science degree and I currently find myself considering a master's for those reasons. It would be nice to avoid having to go that route.
Whatever reason you have for going or not going is a good reason.
I have a master's in CS. Getting it did help me break into a new industry. It may have earned me a better chance at interviews. It didn't get me a higher salary in the near term. I'd have earned more by sticking with my first job. For money alone, experience is best.
And I knew that going in. Personally, I felt comfortable with my expected future earnings before getting the degree. I wasn't comfortable with the rate of my learning at my job. I was headed towards plateauing on a very specific proprietary programming tool (called Ab Initio) whose skills, I felt, weren't easily transferrable to other areas of programming. It turns out I was right and wrong.
Anyway, later in my career, this degree may distinguish me somehow, but in the near term I don't find that it makes much difference to anyone but me. Ultimately, the interview is about how you sell yourself, and a degree doesn't sell itself. It may get you an interview but it doesn't make you a better fit for more organizations.
The reason I went back was I missed classroom learning and wanted exposure to new fields of programming. I ended up studying machine learning. That was in 2006-2008. Now, I try to continue learning using available resources and communities online. Focus is tough though. School was great for forced focus. I thought a lot about the pros and cons of going back to school and decided it was right for me at that time. I'm glad I did it, I learned a lot, met some really cool students and professors who I wouldn't otherwise know, and it gave me some insight into what a PhD and life in academia entails.
Good luck with your decision!
Re: CMU’s computer science dean on its poaching problem
#39Academia in general is screwing itself. The main reason for anyone to go into it is to work on interesting problems in a self-directed fashion with amazing job security. You probably wouldn't get rich, but you'll have a nice upper-middle class salary and almost no way of getting fired. Now the available tenure-track positions are declining every year in favor of adjunct quasi-slave labor. Even if you do win the lotte…
Honest question: where do you learn advanced stuff if not in a graduate school? Academia undoubtedly sucks if one mainly takes money or career prospects into account. But among people who do challenging and sexy stuff (including in the industry) phd seems to be the norm, not the exception. One might object that phd has become unnecessary because nowadays all the relevant information is online but learning without the…
> where do you learn advanced stuff if not in a graduate school?
Hard to answer without knowing your background and exactly what you want to learn, but generally speaking...
(1) Try to find some people who are good at something advanced you want to learn. Figure out a way to work with them.
(2) Be active in online communities. Ask and answer questions, write something and open source it, or contribute to another project.
Re: CMU’s computer science dean on its poaching problem
#40Academia in general is screwing itself. The main reason for anyone to go into it is to work on interesting problems in a self-directed fashion with amazing job security. You probably wouldn't get rich, but you'll have a nice upper-middle class salary and almost no way of getting fired. Now the available tenure-track positions are declining every year in favor of adjunct quasi-slave labor. Even if you do win the lotte…
Honest question: where do you learn advanced stuff if not in a graduate school? Academia undoubtedly sucks if one mainly takes money or career prospects into account. But among people who do challenging and sexy stuff (including in the industry) phd seems to be the norm, not the exception. One might object that phd has become unnecessary because nowadays all the relevant information is online but learning without the…
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