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Being a Developer After 40

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Re: Being a Developer After 40

#521

Post by interpol_p »

BurningFrog wrote: post #400
interpol_p wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's look at the stats. Apple's diversity report [1] states their tech employees are composed of 79% male, 22% female. Facebook's diversity report [2] shows 85% males in tech vs 15% female. Google's is pretty much the same, and you can compare them all with interactive graphs [3]. Note the dominance of white and male in the graphs. The programs you mention for women are great, I agree. These are the steps we need to…

> Note the dominance of white and male in the graphs. Not if you actually look at the graphs. Just taking the Apple data at random, the US numbers are 54% white, 18% asian, 11% hispanic, 8% black, etc. The 2010 US census numbers are: 64% white, 5% asian, 16% hispanic, 12% black. So whites are actually underrepresented , while there are 3.6x as many asians.

We are looking specifically at "tech." That's not "at random."

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#522

Post by interpol_p »

jazzyk wrote: post #376
interpol_p wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's look at the stats. Apple's diversity report [1] states their tech employees are composed of 79% male, 22% female. Facebook's diversity report [2] shows 85% males in tech vs 15% female. Google's is pretty much the same, and you can compare them all with interactive graphs [3]. Note the dominance of white and male in the graphs. The programs you mention for women are great, I agree. These are the steps we need to…

About 18% of computer science graduates are women [1], so Apple (22% female) discriminates against men and Facebook (15%) discriminates against women. Yes, the above is partly tongue-in-cheek (I realize that not all employees are programmers). I am just trying to make a point that companies hire from a pool of qualified candidates (with college degree usually being the "qualified" selector). So if the pool consists o…

Yeah I get that, that's all part of the issue — not enough women in tech education leads to less being employed.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#523

Post by interpol_p »

j4kp07 wrote: post #336
interpol_p wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's look at the stats. Apple's diversity report [1] states their tech employees are composed of 79% male, 22% female. Facebook's diversity report [2] shows 85% males in tech vs 15% female. Google's is pretty much the same, and you can compare them all with interactive graphs [3]. Note the dominance of white and male in the graphs. The programs you mention for women are great, I agree. These are the steps we need to…

LMAO....you literally just said prior to this comment: "We are not trying to ensure there is an "arbitrary number" of certain types of people working in our field." You are a walking Poster Child for hypocrisy.

How does sharing such stats imply achieving "arbitrary numbers" in any sense?

I am pointing at data showing a large disparity in tech employment relative to the population. Women are equally as capable as men when it comes to tech, so we should expect equal representation. We don't get equal representation because of existing cultural biases against women in this field.

It's the same reason we don't get equal representation of men in many "women's" fields where men are clearly as capable as women.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#524

Post by interpol_p »

gremy0 wrote: post #347
interpol_p wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's look at the stats. Apple's diversity report [1] states their tech employees are composed of 79% male, 22% female. Facebook's diversity report [2] shows 85% males in tech vs 15% female. Google's is pretty much the same, and you can compare them all with interactive graphs [3]. Note the dominance of white and male in the graphs. The programs you mention for women are great, I agree. These are the steps we need to…

Those numbers can still mean it's easier for a women to get hired in the industry. They can make the entry level for women lower and get those numbers simply due to the lack of women applying in the first place. That would mean it would be easier for a qualified women in the industry to get a job than a man of equal qualification. Which is ManlyBread was saying. Reality tends to change when you, you know, actually un…

True. It may mean that, but there is zero evidence to back up ManlyBread's claim aside from his anecdotal evidence.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#525

Post by BurningFrog »

interpol_p wrote: post #521
BurningFrog wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Note the dominance of white and male in the graphs. Not if you actually look at the graphs. Just taking the Apple data at random, the US numbers are 54% white, 18% asian, 11% hispanic, 8% black, etc. The 2010 US census numbers are: 64% white, 5% asian, 16% hispanic, 12% black. So whites are actually underrepresented , while there are 3.6x as many asians.

We are looking specifically at "tech." That's not "at random."

What I mean is I randomly looked at one of your three links.

It directly contradicts your claim about the data.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#526

Post by JohnBooty »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #500
JohnBooty wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For years we've talked about "disadvantaged" people. Which is fine, but focusing on disadvantaged people allows whites like me to conveniently ignore the fact that we have advantages. It's an uncomfortable term, and to be honest, confronting your privileges should be uncomfortable. Darn right it's not fun to look at your life situation and think: "Well, I truly worked my ass off and tried to treat everybody well. But…

A point mentioned above, which I agree with, is that this need not be a zero-sum game. I'm not ashamed of my opportunities; I want everyone to have them.

In my opinion that's the correct view.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#527

Post by JohnBooty »

gedy wrote: post #507
JohnBooty wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your example is correct of course. However, please understand: whether it needs a new name or not (I suspect it does) the concept of "white privilege" does not mean "all white people automatically have it easier than all black people." No conflict there.

Actually yes it does mean when you ask the vast majority of people.

If a lot of people think the moon is made from green cheese, that doesn't make it true -- although it does mean that maybe somebody's not doing a very good job teaching them science.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#528

Post by serge2k »

jazzyk wrote: post #450
kjksf wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure there are more distinguished engineers and other senior engineering roles paying $750/year in total comp at Google/Microsoft/Apple etc. than there are neurosurgeons. Not to mention tens of thousands of average developers that got lucky with stock options and became millionaires where a doctor of same age is still slaving away as a resident with 24-hour shifts and abysmal pay ($50-$60k year for surgica…

>The market (not society) is treating us developers pretty >well. I am on the East Coast (outside of NYC, though), have been in the software business for 20+ years and know a lot of smart /accomplished people. I don't know a single software engineer who makes more than $200K/year in a senior engineering role, as an employee. (We are comparing salaries, not consulting income or stock options here, which can disappear…

> stock options

RSUs in an established big company are much less likely become worthless overnight. Core part of your compensation at Amazon/Facebook/Google/etc...

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#529

Post by JohnBooty »

mc32 wrote: post #510
JohnBooty wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, we don't go around calling the issue Sunny privilege to describe it We certainly would (or could) if we were discussing privilege in a Sunni-dominated area where other groups were oppressed! That would be completely correct, right? how would people X feel if we called crime instead of crime "people X" behavior as if only that group engaged in crime? That's an awesome question actually. Let's say there was a c…

Ok, I thought we were speaking "privilege" however now you're bringing up or conflating oppression, which to my understanding is different. Never the less, even in Sunni areas, I dont think it would be helpful to describe the issue suffered by say Shias as Sunni privilege. This representation is apt to create a greater wedge between the groups. Now, as it pertains people in general, within neighborhoods with a majori…

I don't think you can have privilege without oppression of some sort, whether it's an extreme level of oppression like legalized slavery in America, or a more subdued kind like the economic inequality we have in America today.

   Never the less, even in Sunni areas, I dont think it
   would be helpful to describe the issue suffered by say
   Shias as Sunni privilege.
I'd tentatively agree. The value, if any, of "_____ privilege" terminology is get ______ to examine their own privileges, consider how they might benefit from and/or contribute to inequality, and consider how other groups don't share those same privileges.

So in an area where, say, Shia are openly and brutally oppressed by Sunnis there's probably no value to talking about "Sunni privilege" because (I'm assuming) the Sunnis in power are not in denial about the situation.

Contrast w/ America where the inequality is present but typically not as severe nor brutal, but a lot of whites are completely in denial of the fact that there is any systemic inequality at all.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#530

Post by JohnBooty »

ElComradio wrote: post #368
JohnBooty wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand how recognizing my privilege as a white male in America equates to discrimination. Can you explain in detail?

It's simply intractable to add up everyone's advantages and disadvantages; it's the wrong path to focus on group attributes/trends when you start talking about individuals. I could clamor for tall rich sportsmen to "send the elevator down for me". That it's their responsibility and so on. What you should do is reflect on exactly why you'd think I should feel silly for saying that, and the other guy to not. Would you…

    It's simply intractable to add up everyone's advantages and disadvantages
Sure.

    it's the wrong path to focus on group attributes/trends when you start talking about individuals.
Absolute nonsense. If a particular school had a 30% graduation rate while every other school in the state averaged 80%, would you say, "Wait a minute! It's the wrong path to talk about this school in particular. These are individual kids..."

As you say, every individual human being certainly is more than the some of their labels. But when gross inequalities between groups emerge, it's lunacy to suggest there are no greater group-wide forces at work on scales greater than the individual.

    Would you tell Michael Jordan to check his privilege if he told a group of average white male nerds to reflect on theirs?
Is Michael Jordan a group of people? Unless there's a clone army of Michael Jordans out there that I don't know about, this theoretical question is bizarre and irrelevant to anything anybody is talking about.

I'm not even sure what you're getting at here. He is a part of some privileged groups (rich people, people with one-in-a-million athletic ability, men) and not others.

    I could clamor for tall rich sportsmen to "send the
    elevator down for me". That it's their responsibility
    and so on.
Michael Jordan can't make you a rich, tall sportsman. That's not... physically possible. However, the author of the original article suggested that we help others achieve careers in our industry. Now that certainly does seem possible, doesn't it? Hardly even seems controversial, if you ask me.
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