We’re not the “good guys”: American drone warfare is terrorizing the Middle East • Hacker News Board

Re: We’re not the “good guys”: American drone warfare is terrorizing the Middle East

#51

Post by richmarr » Tue, Apr 26, 2016, 8:37 PM UTC

jkraker wrote: post #41

I don't think anyone would argue that at least some of these individuals who are targeted are really bad people who are trying to do orders of magnitude more damage other populations. So here's the key question: How to you best neutralize the threat of that person? The US has settled on killing them with drones as the "best" solution and its leaders I think truly believe that this minimizes collateral damage. Is ther…

That's certainly a valid argument on a case by case basis, but as discussed in the article drone strikes are seen as a contributor to radicalisation... which makes it deeply ineffective, or even counter-effective, on a long-term policy basis.

Re: We’re not the “good guys”: American drone warfare is terrorizing the Middle East

#52

Post by valvar » Tue, Apr 26, 2016, 8:38 PM UTC

I find that pieces like this one skewer the debate. The debate should be about war and the use of force, not drones. What's the alternative to drones? It's either boots on the ground, or not waging war. I think a lot of people, including myself, would prefer the latter. But if we're choosing between boots on the grounds, and drones, we should look at the facts. I don't have them at hand, but I have a strong suspicion that drones are the better option if you care for the people, both American and native. If you abolish the drones but continue the war, that's not a particularly desirable result. So let's focus on the negatives of war in general, not the negatives of a particularly effective technology that it can be waged with.

I think the aspect of operators' mental health which the article brought up was very important, though. These people are soliders, but are they treated as such? Why are they not given more support? Why are they not selected more carefully and given better psychological training beforehand? It's a budget question, of course, but it still desperately needs to be addressed.

Re: We’re not the “good guys”: American drone warfare is terrorizing the Middle East

#53

Post by malandrew » Tue, Apr 26, 2016, 8:38 PM UTC

hellbanner wrote: post #11

Blackthorn wrote: post #4

I've made the claim in the past on, for example, my FB feed that American drone strikes are literally terrorism and should be treated no differently than (for example) the Brussels attacks. This has resulted in more than a few hurt feelings but honestly I cannot see a difference. I am American.

Thank you for doing this! It might help in your campaign to compare "terrorism" as the US media puts it, and George Bush's "Shock & Awe" campaign -- designed to intimidate and scare their enemy for a political purpose :) That and the Bush's family relations with the Bin Laden family in the decades past.

Interesting comment.

It would be ironic if future videos claiming responsibility for violent attacks start using the exact same terms and language as the US politicians, such as "Shock & Awe".

When a major component of allowing a conflict to proceed is support or merely just apathy from the populace that has elected the leaders that are targeting your people, it would seem that the most effective way to highlight the hypocrisy of the elected leaders of your enemies would be to mirror their tactics as precisely as possible as opposed to escalation. Mirroring puts it in people's mind that they need to oppose further violence from their side to stop future attacks against themselves.

Sadly, the other side adopting a strict eye for an eye approach to retaliation (tit for tat) might be the only way that either side can actually avoid making the whole world blind, since it would at least promote dialogue where people on both sides at least ask themselves "When we commit X against them, they commit X against us. Maybe we should try to stop committing X and see if they will too". The current approach of planning out attacks that escalate the conflict just makes things worse.

I'm curious if there has been any solid game theory research into the impact of tit-for-tat retaliation versus escalating retaliation.

Re: We’re not the “good guys”: American drone warfare is terrorizing the Middle East

#54

Post by richmarr » Tue, Apr 26, 2016, 8:47 PM UTC

snowwrestler wrote: post #50

Blackthorn wrote: post #4

I've made the claim in the past on, for example, my FB feed that American drone strikes are literally terrorism and should be treated no differently than (for example) the Brussels attacks. This has resulted in more than a few hurt feelings but honestly I cannot see a difference. I am American.

I think a lot of Americans would object to that, in part because our drone strikes have very specific targets--they are not intended to cause general terror. That said, from the perspective of people on the ground, there is no doubt that they are generally terrifying and horrifying. While the strikes might help degrade ISIS leadership and operations, they also help create extremely strong anti-US emotions by killing…

> ... not intended to cause general terror.

Maybe, although it's hard to imagine there's no intent for drone strikes to act as a deterrent. It's not identical to idiomatic terrorism, but also not completely different.

> Ignore ISIS? That's dangerous.

There are no choices available here that aren't extremely dangerous. None. Least of all the cookie-cutter 'war hawk' attitudes that got us into this mess in the first place.

Personally my suspicion is that ignoring them is probably the least dangerous. ISIS is an organisation that feeds on radicalisation, it feeds on aggression. Aggression is its recruiting tool.

Build a mosque. Build a mosque so f%cking huge and beautiful that even hearing about it makes ISIS fighters weep.

Change the music and all this will be over in a few years. Feed the war machine and we're here for another generation at least.

Re: We’re not the “good guys”: American drone warfare is terrorizing the Middle East

#55

Post by eevilspock » Tue, Apr 26, 2016, 8:52 PM UTC

jkraker wrote: post #41

I don't think anyone would argue that at least some of these individuals who are targeted are really bad people who are trying to do orders of magnitude more damage other populations. So here's the key question: How to you best neutralize the threat of that person? The US has settled on killing them with drones as the "best" solution and its leaders I think truly believe that this minimizes collateral damage. Is ther…

1. Walk the walk. Stop doing evil in the world. Evil begets evil. Time and again our national policies put self interest ahead of morality. We support dictators. We arm terrorists. We arm everyone, because there is so much profit in it. We invade other countries on false pretenses. We invade a country promising to back the long suffering minority, but abandon them as soon as our self-interests are fulfilled. Then 10 years later we invade the country again, leaving it in ruins. We bomb other countries without declaring war. We ignore international law, because we can get away with it. We imprison and torture foreign suspects ignoring our own laws and morality about such imprisonments, but of course they're foreigners so morality gets suspended. This is all just off the top of my head.

2. And if we really must attack, send in troops. Yes, some of our troops may die. But it is more honest. War should not be easy. And when we say fuck it, our troop are more valuable than civilians in the firing line, what does that say about our morals? See #1.

---

The US is Quietly Helping Saudi Arabia Wage a Devastating Aerial Campaign in Yemen: https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/03/30/us-quietly-helping-saudi...

How Bribes to Politicians From Arms Dealers Keep Wars Going. And How the Wars Keep the Politicians Going: http://whowhatwhy.org/2016/04/25/bribes-politicians-arms-dea...

Re: We’re not the “good guys”: American drone warfare is terrorizing the Middle East

#56

Post by gshulegaard » Tue, Apr 26, 2016, 9:07 PM UTC

jonnybgood wrote: post #49

jkraker wrote: post #41

I don't think anyone would argue that at least some of these individuals who are targeted are really bad people who are trying to do orders of magnitude more damage other populations. So here's the key question: How to you best neutralize the threat of that person? The US has settled on killing them with drones as the "best" solution and its leaders I think truly believe that this minimizes collateral damage. Is ther…

These are the right questions. Drones have been determined to be the most effective military weapon at this time, both militarily and politically (the American public doesn't want to send troops in but they also don't want these groups to exist). I think there is a dilemma here.

I think another "right" question is how do we determine who gets put on the drone "hit list"? This article put this question at the forefront of my mind: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/i-am-on-the-us-kill-list...

But this isn't limited to just Drone killings. This applies to much broader contexts...for example the governmental handling of Aaron Swartz comes to my mind (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Swartz).

I think it is becoming increasingly clear that the US government isn't always acting in the best interests of the people or liberty...so how did we get here and how do we fix it? What is a better method?

And that is where I think this conversation starts to get very gray very fast.

Re: We’re not the “good guys”: American drone warfare is terrorizing the Middle East

#57

Post by bainsfather » Tue, Apr 26, 2016, 9:30 PM UTC

Blackthorn wrote: post #43

jkraker wrote: post #41

I don't think anyone would argue that at least some of these individuals who are targeted are really bad people who are trying to do orders of magnitude more damage other populations. So here's the key question: How to you best neutralize the threat of that person? The US has settled on killing them with drones as the "best" solution and its leaders I think truly believe that this minimizes collateral damage. Is ther…

> So here's the key question: How to you best neutralize the threat of that person? Honest question: has assassination ever actually been effective at effecting the political change the assassin wants? It's probably easier now to assassinate someone than it ever has been in human history, but the actual number doesn't seem higher per capita (maybe it is, feel free to correct me on that).

Yitzhak Rabin's - his assassin succeeded in halting the peace process Rabin was leading. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_Rabin

Re: We’re not the “good guys”: American drone warfare is terrorizing the Middle East

#58

Post by kuschku » Tue, Apr 26, 2016, 9:37 PM UTC

sean-duffy wrote: post #13

Blackthorn wrote: post #4

I've made the claim in the past on, for example, my FB feed that American drone strikes are literally terrorism and should be treated no differently than (for example) the Brussels attacks. This has resulted in more than a few hurt feelings but honestly I cannot see a difference. I am American.

For a start, the drone strikes are at least claimed to be against strategic targets and not just indiscriminate killing of civilians. That's something that can't be said for the likes of the Brussels attacks.

Well, one of the Brussels attacks happened right next to the some of the EU buildings – that’s more targeted than most drone strikes.

Re: We’re not the “good guys”: American drone warfare is terrorizing the Middle East

#59

Post by jeremyt » Tue, Apr 26, 2016, 9:53 PM UTC

Jtsummers wrote: post #44

jeremyt wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A scientist attempting to find a cure for cancer accidentally mixes up some chemicals and causes a huge explosion which results in 1000 deaths. Alternately, a terrorist sets off a bomb in a public place killing 1000 people. Should they each be charged with the same crime and receive the same punishment?

Your scientist had no intent on killing anyone. Drone strikes are intended to kill. It's an unapt comparison for a discussion about two groups deliberately killing people. One classified as "terrorism" and the other classified as "war as usual/collateral damage" when they kill innocent people.

I was responding to a comment stating "I don't see why intention matters"

Re: We’re not the “good guys”: American drone warfare is terrorizing the Middle East

#60

Post by omonra » Wed, Apr 27, 2016, 12:54 AM UTC

Blackthorn wrote: post #43

jkraker wrote: post #41

I don't think anyone would argue that at least some of these individuals who are targeted are really bad people who are trying to do orders of magnitude more damage other populations. So here's the key question: How to you best neutralize the threat of that person? The US has settled on killing them with drones as the "best" solution and its leaders I think truly believe that this minimizes collateral damage. Is ther…

> So here's the key question: How to you best neutralize the threat of that person? Honest question: has assassination ever actually been effective at effecting the political change the assassin wants? It's probably easier now to assassinate someone than it ever has been in human history, but the actual number doesn't seem higher per capita (maybe it is, feel free to correct me on that).

1. The goal of US drone assassinations is not to effect political change but to keep the status quo. That's a different question than one you asked.

2. On a more general level, your question can be rephrased as 'has violence ever been effective at making a (political) difference'. The answer to that is - absolutely. It has actually been the most effective strategy at effecting change throughout history.