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We’re not the “good guys”: American drone warfare is terrorizing the Middle East

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Re: We’re not the “good guys”: American drone warfare is terrorizing the Middle East

#41

Post by jkraker »

I don't think anyone would argue that at least some of these individuals who are targeted are really bad people who are trying to do orders of magnitude more damage other populations.

So here's the key question: How to you best neutralize the threat of that person? The US has settled on killing them with drones as the "best" solution and its leaders I think truly believe that this minimizes collateral damage. Is there a better course of action besides just letting these people work toward their horrific goals? I think that history has proven that you can't just leave people like this alone and expect them to chill out, so what do you do?

Re: We’re not the “good guys”: American drone warfare is terrorizing the Middle East

#42

Post by calgoo »

sean-duffy wrote: post #13
Blackthorn wrote: post #4

I've made the claim in the past on, for example, my FB feed that American drone strikes are literally terrorism and should be treated no differently than (for example) the Brussels attacks. This has resulted in more than a few hurt feelings but honestly I cannot see a difference. I am American.

For a start, the drone strikes are at least claimed to be against strategic targets and not just indiscriminate killing of civilians. That's something that can't be said for the likes of the Brussels attacks.

To the terrorists the big public places are also strategic targets. They are the underdog so to make the most noise they involve a lot of civilians.

Re: We’re not the “good guys”: American drone warfare is terrorizing the Middle East

#43

Post by Blackthorn »

jkraker wrote: post #41

I don't think anyone would argue that at least some of these individuals who are targeted are really bad people who are trying to do orders of magnitude more damage other populations. So here's the key question: How to you best neutralize the threat of that person? The US has settled on killing them with drones as the "best" solution and its leaders I think truly believe that this minimizes collateral damage. Is ther…

> So here's the key question: How to you best neutralize the threat of that person?

Honest question: has assassination ever actually been effective at effecting the political change the assassin wants?

It's probably easier now to assassinate someone than it ever has been in human history, but the actual number doesn't seem higher per capita (maybe it is, feel free to correct me on that).

Re: We’re not the “good guys”: American drone warfare is terrorizing the Middle East

#44

Post by Jtsummers »

jeremyt wrote: post #24
the-dude wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not see why intention matters.

A scientist attempting to find a cure for cancer accidentally mixes up some chemicals and causes a huge explosion which results in 1000 deaths. Alternately, a terrorist sets off a bomb in a public place killing 1000 people. Should they each be charged with the same crime and receive the same punishment?

Your scientist had no intent on killing anyone. Drone strikes are intended to kill. It's an unapt comparison for a discussion about two groups deliberately killing people. One classified as "terrorism" and the other classified as "war as usual/collateral damage" when they kill innocent people.

Re: We’re not the “good guys”: American drone warfare is terrorizing the Middle East

#45

Post by semi-extrinsic »

_delirium wrote: post #20
sean-duffy wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a start, the drone strikes are at least claimed to be against strategic targets and not just indiscriminate killing of civilians. That's something that can't be said for the likes of the Brussels attacks.

That's true for some, but not all things usually classified as terrorism. For example the IRA bomb aimed at Margaret Thatcher, with other people being collateral damage, was considered a terrorist attack at the time, even though its goal wasn't to indiscriminately kill civilians. The Greek group 17 November is another example, which exclusively carried out targeted assassinations (their first success was killing the…

It's only terrorism when "they" do it. That's basically the working definition.

Same goes with war crimes; cf. the U.S. attack on the Doctors Without Borders hospital in Kunduz, 2015. No matter what the facts are in that case, the U.S. is never going to admit responsibility for a war crime. Blaming the pilots for "human error", no consequences for any commanding officers, is the path they will take.

Re: We’re not the “good guys”: American drone warfare is terrorizing the Middle East

#46

Post by jkraker »

Blackthorn wrote: post #43
jkraker wrote: post #41

I don't think anyone would argue that at least some of these individuals who are targeted are really bad people who are trying to do orders of magnitude more damage other populations. So here's the key question: How to you best neutralize the threat of that person? The US has settled on killing them with drones as the "best" solution and its leaders I think truly believe that this minimizes collateral damage. Is ther…

> So here's the key question: How to you best neutralize the threat of that person? Honest question: has assassination ever actually been effective at effecting the political change the assassin wants? It's probably easier now to assassinate someone than it ever has been in human history, but the actual number doesn't seem higher per capita (maybe it is, feel free to correct me on that).

I feel like it's more war than assassination. I may be looking at it incorrectly though.

Re: We’re not the “good guys”: American drone warfare is terrorizing the Middle East

#47

Post by nekomancer »

sean-duffy wrote: post #13
Blackthorn wrote: post #4

I've made the claim in the past on, for example, my FB feed that American drone strikes are literally terrorism and should be treated no differently than (for example) the Brussels attacks. This has resulted in more than a few hurt feelings but honestly I cannot see a difference. I am American.

For a start, the drone strikes are at least claimed to be against strategic targets and not just indiscriminate killing of civilians. That's something that can't be said for the likes of the Brussels attacks.

The Brussels atttacks were against strategic targets though.

As for the indiscriminate killing of civilians, what else would you call the example from the article?

> in Pakistan, in attempts to take out 41 men, American drones actually killed an estimated 1,147 people (while not all of the 41 targeted figures even died).

Re: We’re not the “good guys”: American drone warfare is terrorizing the Middle East

#48

Post by rl3 »

jeremyt wrote: post #19
noir_lord wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unavoidable collateral damage? It isn't unavoidable, don't fire the damn missiles from the Drone. The US and UK are like a little kid who fucks with a hornets nest, gets stung and retaliates by getting a flamethrower.

If you are against any use of force which could have collateral damage, then you are effectively against any use of force. That's a principled stand, but not actually very realistic.

There's a difference between being against any use of force that could have collateral damage, and firing anti-tank missiles into populated areas. The former is tragic, the latter is sheer stupidity.

Fortunately weaponized lasers are coming. Those should succeed in reducing collateral damage almost entirely. All that needs fixing after that is the often-faulty intelligence, and weeding out gung-ho idiot drone operators.

Re: We’re not the “good guys”: American drone warfare is terrorizing the Middle East

#49

Post by jonnybgood »

jkraker wrote: post #41

I don't think anyone would argue that at least some of these individuals who are targeted are really bad people who are trying to do orders of magnitude more damage other populations. So here's the key question: How to you best neutralize the threat of that person? The US has settled on killing them with drones as the "best" solution and its leaders I think truly believe that this minimizes collateral damage. Is ther…

These are the right questions. Drones have been determined to be the most effective military weapon at this time, both militarily and politically (the American public doesn't want to send troops in but they also don't want these groups to exist). I think there is a dilemma here.

Re: We’re not the “good guys”: American drone warfare is terrorizing the Middle East

#50

Post by snowwrestler »

Blackthorn wrote: post #4

I've made the claim in the past on, for example, my FB feed that American drone strikes are literally terrorism and should be treated no differently than (for example) the Brussels attacks. This has resulted in more than a few hurt feelings but honestly I cannot see a difference. I am American.

I think a lot of Americans would object to that, in part because our drone strikes have very specific targets--they are not intended to cause general terror.

That said, from the perspective of people on the ground, there is no doubt that they are generally terrifying and horrifying. While the strikes might help degrade ISIS leadership and operations, they also help create extremely strong anti-US emotions by killing innocent men, women, and children.

The hard question is, what is the alternative? Ignore ISIS? That's dangerous. Put boots on the ground? Not going to happen--the American people are sick of that. So perhaps drone strikes are simply the least terrible of several terrible options.

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