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We’re not the “good guys”: American drone warfare is terrorizing the Middle East

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Re: We’re not the “good guys”: American drone warfare is terrorizing the Middle East

#31

Post by noir_lord »

clavalle wrote: post #15

I have a really hard time feeling bad for people that join the military that get upset that they have to kill people.

There is a great deal of difference between joining the military because you want a career and to defend your country (for example joining the Japanese Defence Force) and joining other militaries.

It is perhaps naive to join the US or UK military and not expect to deployed to fight in often pointless wars with no clear strategic goals beyond "something must be done, this is something ergo we must do it".

That said the entire PR effort of both militaries is around serving your country and been the "good guy", it's not until you are inside the factory you see how the sausage is made, remember most of us aren't 18-19 year old kids often from a poor background.

Lots of people do things I think are strange (going to a cold stone building to worship a being who most likely doesn't exist, blowing yourself up because a man who claims a better of understanding of being who probably doesn't exist than you says so etc etc).

Re: We’re not the “good guys”: American drone warfare is terrorizing the Middle East

#32

Post by Jtsummers »

sean-duffy wrote: post #13
Blackthorn wrote: post #4

I've made the claim in the past on, for example, my FB feed that American drone strikes are literally terrorism and should be treated no differently than (for example) the Brussels attacks. This has resulted in more than a few hurt feelings but honestly I cannot see a difference. I am American.

For a start, the drone strikes are at least claimed to be against strategic targets and not just indiscriminate killing of civilians. That's something that can't be said for the likes of the Brussels attacks.

The Brussels attacks had no specific individuals being targeted.

Drone strikes that hit civilians and a specific target are sloppy assassinations, and terrorism.

Re: We’re not the “good guys”: American drone warfare is terrorizing the Middle East

#33

Post by thesimpsons1022 »

jeremyt wrote: post #24
the-dude wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not see why intention matters.

A scientist attempting to find a cure for cancer accidentally mixes up some chemicals and causes a huge explosion which results in 1000 deaths. Alternately, a terrorist sets off a bomb in a public place killing 1000 people. Should they each be charged with the same crime and receive the same punishment?

I don't think that is the best example. It can be as simple as someone intentionally running over a cat versus backing out and not noticing it.

Re: We’re not the “good guys”: American drone warfare is terrorizing the Middle East

#34

Post by ourmandave »

I'd read that ISIS beheading videos we're for recruiting (besides proving that they'll kill if you don't pay the ransom).

But I wondered why anyone would want to join an organization that does that.

I guess having your wedding hellfire-missiled might be a motivator.

Re: We’re not the “good guys”: American drone warfare is terrorizing the Middle East

#35

Post by Blackthorn »

clavalle wrote: post #15

I have a really hard time feeling bad for people that join the military that get upset that they have to kill people.

The military is the only way out of really bad living situations for some, including a number of friends I've made in life.

I'd say that that means there should be other ways of doing public service and escaping your roots for it, but there's nothing like the military for that in the USA.

Re: We’re not the “good guys”: American drone warfare is terrorizing the Middle East

#36

Post by noir_lord »

jeremyt wrote: post #19
noir_lord wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unavoidable collateral damage? It isn't unavoidable, don't fire the damn missiles from the Drone. The US and UK are like a little kid who fucks with a hornets nest, gets stung and retaliates by getting a flamethrower.

If you are against any use of force which could have collateral damage, then you are effectively against any use of force. That's a principled stand, but not actually very realistic.

No, I'm against any use of force that isn't clearly self defence.

(Very Very hypothetically) Russia annexes half of western Europe and starts massing troops on the border and deploying landing craft then you can open fire.

It's not very realistic purely because of the way the world currently works, as Von Clausewitz said "War is the continuation of diplomacy by other means" and it shouldn't be.

Re: We’re not the “good guys”: American drone warfare is terrorizing the Middle East

#37

Post by gldalmaso »

jeremyt wrote: post #9
Blackthorn wrote: post #4

I've made the claim in the past on, for example, my FB feed that American drone strikes are literally terrorism and should be treated no differently than (for example) the Brussels attacks. This has resulted in more than a few hurt feelings but honestly I cannot see a difference. I am American.

You can't see any difference between an attack in an extremely public place that indiscriminately targets civilians in an effort to kill as many people as possible and targeted attacks on specific targets with sometimes unfortunate and unavoidable collateral damage?

> unavoidable collateral damage

First responders and funerals are unavoidable collateral damage?

Re: We’re not the “good guys”: American drone warfare is terrorizing the Middle East

#38

Post by ybrah »

sean-duffy wrote: post #13
Blackthorn wrote: post #4

I've made the claim in the past on, for example, my FB feed that American drone strikes are literally terrorism and should be treated no differently than (for example) the Brussels attacks. This has resulted in more than a few hurt feelings but honestly I cannot see a difference. I am American.

For a start, the drone strikes are at least claimed to be against strategic targets and not just indiscriminate killing of civilians. That's something that can't be said for the likes of the Brussels attacks.

One can argue that the civilians killed at the Brussels terror attacks are actually strategic targets for the terror groups.

Re: We’re not the “good guys”: American drone warfare is terrorizing the Middle East

#39

Post by Joeri »

To be fair, this is an international war. It's not the U.S. that's fighting ISIL, it's NATO. I doubt the drone strikes help things, but when you look at what ISIL does it would be equally wrong to stand by and let it happen.

There are no easy answers on what should be done in conflicts like these. I'm pretty sure drones are the wrong answer, but I don't know what a better one would be. Maybe as a species we just haven't developed the right ethical code to avoid getting into these horrible messes, because in one form or another they keep returning. It's always war somewhere.

Re: We’re not the “good guys”: American drone warfare is terrorizing the Middle East

#40

Post by delecti »

the-dude wrote: post #30
strictnein wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Motive is important in how we judge almost everything in life. Why would this be any different?

Is that so? I am not sure. Also this leads to 'I hit you because I love you' excuses. And that is all they are, excuses.

Motive matters, but it isn't the final word.
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