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Being a Developer After 40

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Re: Being a Developer After 40

#461

Post by JohnBooty »

Domenic_S wrote: post #422
JohnBooty wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While white privilege and male privilege are important realities, I don't think they are the only things that matter. If it helps to hear this from a white male who is a believer in recognizing white privilege and male privilege: being white and/or being male are sometimes disadvantages too! In most of America, you can't be male and teach young kids these days. People (parents) will wonder if you're a child molester,…

I don't disagree with any of that; every gender/race/etc has SOME kind of privilege attached to it. The point that you're [ missing | skirting ] though is many folks use the existence of privilege to ignore/bully/hate (eg, my YT link above, the white professor who got berated on campus, etc etc).

Yes. Things can flow the other way as well.

Did black kids pick some fights with me in school because I was white? Yes. It's a real thing that happens.

It's a fallacy, of course, to dismiss a belief just because some of its believers are assholes, even if they're being assholes in the name of that cause. I mean really, no group or belief on this Earth could ever pass that criteria.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#462

Post by nucleardonuts »

CamperZero wrote: post #421
african_cheetah wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> everyone has the same opportunities. Not really. That's what it means. Being white makes it slightly easier to get some opportunities.

Two people of the same socioeconomic standing but of different races. One has a lower bar to entry into college because of affirmative action and a easier time getting a high paying job because of diversity needs. Who has the privilege here?

I recently worked for a place where I and one other man were white. Everyone there attended the local university free of charge because they were either black or Hispanic. Not exactly fair. A white man such as myself would have been charged almost full price to attend.

The poorest people I know are whites and I've lived and worked around the world. Yet, the same whites cannot roll into a university and be let in almost for nothing, yet the blacks and Hispanics do.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#463

Post by mc32 »

cname wrote: post #441
mc32 wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right but you're skirting right by. The thing is it is a pretty common phenomenon. It's something that isn't intrinsic to white people or any single class of people. It happens to be that in the US whites on average can experience advantage. But if the US had a different history and were colonized by other people there would be other people experiencing this "privilege". I mean, we don't go around calling the issue S…

So, it's a pretty common problem. I think everyone knows that. Does that mean we shouldn't address the problems in front of us?

Yes, the problem is presenting it as a zero-sum issue where what one has is at the expense of someone else and in addition posing something as intrinsic and inextricable from a class of people. It's their disease it's a bad disease and really they should be ashamed, rather than addressing the system we're addressing it as a people issue.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#464

Post by nucleardonuts »

magni- wrote: post #433
nucleardonuts wrote: post #224

I grow weary of hearing about "white privilege". I likewise grow weary of any of today's politically correct messages: women in combat, bathroom bills, work quotas, transvestite rights. It's all BS. I grew up a military brat. We didn't have a lot of money. I wore hand-me-downs, had iron-on patches on my knees. My family could not afford to send me to college, so I served in the military to get the GI Bill and worked…

Your whole argument is a strawman. "I didn't grow up a millionaire" doesn't mean that your life would have been the same had you been black, all else equal. Take a step back and don't be so defensive: "white privilege" isn't a personal attack. It's only meant to raise awareness, awareness that you clearly need, based on your post.

I don't need awareness. I'm keenly aware of what's happening here in America and abroad. I got where I am because I worked hard. I've received no handouts. I paid for my education through my military service. I earned my 3.98 GPA in CompSci because I put forth the effort. I currently work with some blacks who have done the same thing, and they were poorer than me growing up. It's about attitude and what you want. Real men don't want handouts. They don't want a check given to them for doing nothing.

Hell, now there are people talking about a basic income for doing nothing. I agree with scripture, work or don't eat. Granted, society has people who cannot work through no fault of their own. Take care of our less fortunate brothers and sisters, by all means. If you are an able-bodied adult, get off your ass and work for a living. Start of down low like everyone else and make something of yourself. This is where the military shines. A poor guy can rise to the top in the military. Get his college paid for. Make something of himself. Nothing stops these people. There is no such thing as will power. It's want power. How bad do you want to be better, different, not poor, educated. How bad do you want to work to ensure your children live a better life than you? My parents were not perfect, but damn if they didn't raise me right. I work for what's mine and want no handouts from others.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#465

Post by JohnBooty »

AudaIbuTayi wrote: post #443
JohnBooty wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have hundreds of years of high-quality race-neutral rights language to pick from. Why was that language eschewed? Do we have equality today in America? The answer to that might assist you in your search for understanding. Who could have guessed that identifying and singling out a particular race for correction and self-abasement would entail some push-back? As a white male in America, I just don't feel that recogn…

> Do we have equality today in America? You're being parochial. This is an international forum. Do "we" have equality in Israel? In China? In Saudi Arabia? > I don't feel the need to push back. You've stated that the phrase "white privilege" is resulting in "spectacular" misunderstanding. I'm agreeing that it is a fatally fraught phrase. I wish you luck in replacing it (if that's what you meant by "we need better lan…

    You're being parochial. This is an international forum. Do "we" have equality in Israel? In China? In Saudi Arabia?
If you wanted to talk about those things, I wouldn't chide you for being parochial. I would just see that you are... discussing those specific things, particularly if you were being as clear about it as I was. "Oh," I'd think. "There's a discussion that doesn't involve me. Perhaps I shouldn't attempt to be clever in it."

I'm not sure if English is your native language but you should understand that "we" does not necessarily mean "every human." It can have different meanings depending on context.

For example, if I say "My family enjoys dinner together. Tonight, we enjoyed spaghetti" then in this case it's clear from context that "we" means "my family."

Similar, if I say "In America [...] we" then it is also very clear that I'm talking about America.

I hope this makes your future encounters with English more comprehendable for you.

    Signaling that _you_ are thinking while _they_ are emoting is a bad-faith tell.
I specifically said I "don't feel" the need to push back, and that you apparently do "feel" it. To hell with signaling: you're ignoring the thing I literally said in direct and unambiguous language. Now that's bad faith.

    I wish you luck in replacing it
Hey thanks!

Did you have anything constructive to say here? I don't see anything of the sort, just a bunch of misguided attempts at pedantry that don't hold any water whatsoever.

I mean, I get it: you think that talking about particular kinds of privilege is bad. I'm not going to intentionally misstate what you said, or be ineffectively pedantic, because that's neither clever nor helpful.

    So where does that leave your search for better language?
Discouraged, because there are an awful lot of people like you who want to turn things into a pedantic debate (dispute being hilariously underequipped to do so; I suggest you stay in your lane) instead of working towards any kind of awareness or solution whatsoever.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#466

Post by maratd »

JohnBooty wrote: post #352
maratd wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but 1- it doesn't compare to what, for example, black or chinese people or native americans suffered historically And that doesn't compare to what Jews went through 50 years ago. What's your point? There's always a bigger sob story around the corner. You deal with it and move on . The moving on part is important. > whereas prejudice against "people of color" is still very much alive. And that prejudice will amplify…

And that prejudice will amplify if you continue treating people of color differently. Recognizing unjust treatment and inequality is not "treating people differently." Equality is the goal; recognizing inequality is part of how we get there.

> Equality is the goal

That's your goal. I don't share it.

I want equal opportunity, not equal outcome. We will never have equal outcome because we're all different and that's a good thing.

And I don't care if you're disadvantaged because of a thousand different reasons. None of us are born equal. We have no control over that.

What we can do is make sure that the bar is the same for everyone. That's the only equality I'm interested in.

> recognizing inequality is part of how we get there

That is a terrible approach because you have no idea if the inequality arose out of unjustified discrimination, innate differences in talent, effort invested, or a thousand other things.

I would much rather focus on making sure that the bar is set to the same height for everyone, regardless of color, sex, age, ethnicity, religion, or any other damned thing people decide to group themselves or others by.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#467

Post by justinlardinois »

bwanab wrote: post #451
toddkazakov wrote: post #21

I am based in Bulgaria and I recently had my first experience with a potential Swiss employer. It was rather unpleasant. After I went through 5 interviews we discussed my rates (as a remote consultant). I received a low ball counter offer which was about the half of what I usually charge. This quickly became a racist rant and a senior manager at the company tried to persuade me by saying that with the money they offe…

The Swiss also have a real ageism issue. When I worked there, I had a good friend who was Swiss that got fired. He was in his 50s at the time and the attitude was that nobody that age should be coding. He was a very good developer, but couldn't get hired because of his age. He started a web development company. The key to his success was that when he met with clients he presented himself as "the boss" with his crew o…

As an American I've heard this is a major issue in our software industry as well. But I'm young and I don't know any significantly older developers so I can't really verify.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#468

Post by beachstartup »

bwanab wrote: post #451
toddkazakov wrote: post #21

I am based in Bulgaria and I recently had my first experience with a potential Swiss employer. It was rather unpleasant. After I went through 5 interviews we discussed my rates (as a remote consultant). I received a low ball counter offer which was about the half of what I usually charge. This quickly became a racist rant and a senior manager at the company tried to persuade me by saying that with the money they offe…

The Swiss also have a real ageism issue. When I worked there, I had a good friend who was Swiss that got fired. He was in his 50s at the time and the attitude was that nobody that age should be coding. He was a very good developer, but couldn't get hired because of his age. He started a web development company. The key to his success was that when he met with clients he presented himself as "the boss" with his crew o…

as you get older, looking for a job isn't called "looking for a job", it's called "sales". and you can "look for a job" for other people, too.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#469

Post by justinlardinois »

blub wrote: post #67
greenspot wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying 'you will live like a king' is not the smartest thing. He should have said: 'Please consider that your local living costs are much lower than in Switzerland. We incorporate those differences in our offered rate like every other company does. Thanks for your understanding.' So the tone was—yes—unprofessional, the attitude not. And even if this attitude is debatable, you have to allow the other party to express…

I find it quite bizarre that remote workers living in a country with lower cost of living are expected to take lower pay than locals while doing the same work and offering the same value. Otherwise yes, people are allowed to express silly things and one shouldn't prevent them from doing so, especially when they show their true colors. Looks to me like they dodged a bullet.

I can understand paying remote workers somewhat less, regardless of what country they live in. I would expect productivity to be lower for remote workers and communication with them to be more difficult, hence the lower value.

But I agree that basing salaries on costs of living in the worker's country is wrong. Salaries should be based on what your labor is worth, not what your perceived economic need is. It's exploitative, and it's also not fair to local workers who would get priced out by foreign workers willing to settle for less.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#470

Post by jdcarter »

heckerboy wrote: post #125
eloisant wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's one of the reason why I left Silicon Valley. I love what I do, and I love to meet with other developers, but I was tired of only meeting people similar to me. Now it feels good to be in a real city with many different people, doing different stuff. It's much more fulfilling than living in a bubble with clones of myself.

Curious, where did you move to? I am also looking to leave the valley someday, but am afraid that the jobs won't be as plentiful as they are here.

I left the valley in 1991, right before the "web 1.0" bubble burst. I moved to Boulder, Colorado. It's wonderful here. There's tech companies--including an active startup scene--but people are far more balanced, even the nerds.
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