Being a Developer After 40 • Hacker News Board

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#351

Post by erroneousfunk » Tue, Apr 26, 2016, 3:49 PM UTC

mnglkhn2 wrote: post #156

ManlyBread wrote: post #105

The article was pretty good until this part. >If you are a white male remember all the privilege you have enjoyed since birth just because you were born that way. It is your responsibility to change the industry and its bias towards more inclusion. I'm from an Eastern Europe and my family never was rich, I had to put in a tremendous effort to even get into the industry. Assuming I got an easy ride simply because I'm…

The reason I agree with you OP is because, as you, I am also from Eastern Europe and I can recognize the same traits in the current "white privilege" arguments to those that plagued Europe mid-century. Like now, during those times there were people arguing that the Jews are taking all the jobs, the good jobs (doctors, engineers, bankers, etc - basically every profession). And the solution was not to advocate for equa…

> Like now, during those times there were people arguing that the Jews are taking all the jobs

Are you really comparing Internet essays about 'white privilege' to the Nazi movement?

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#352

Post by JohnBooty » Tue, Apr 26, 2016, 3:50 PM UTC

maratd wrote: post #223

lbebber wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, various groups of white people have suffered varying levels of prejudice, but 1- it doesn't compare to what, for example, black or chinese people or native americans suffered historically and 2- most of the prejudice against these groups has been forgotten, whereas prejudice against "people of color" is still very much alive.

> but 1- it doesn't compare to what, for example, black or chinese people or native americans suffered historically And that doesn't compare to what Jews went through 50 years ago. What's your point? There's always a bigger sob story around the corner. You deal with it and move on . The moving on part is important. > whereas prejudice against "people of color" is still very much alive. And that prejudice will amplify…

    And that prejudice will amplify if you continue treating people of color differently.

Recognizing unjust treatment and inequality is not "treating people differently."

Equality is the goal; recognizing inequality is part of how we get there.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#353

Post by reefoctopus » Tue, Apr 26, 2016, 3:50 PM UTC

snowwrestler wrote: post #306

reefoctopus wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that no one likes to be discriminated against which is why I take issue with the "too many white males in tech" narrative. The proposed solution is to discriminate against people like me. I've never once worked somewhere where everybody didn't walk on eggshells to ensure not to offend anyone. Women who are being harassed and intimidated have legal recourse. It's practically career ending to end up on the wron…

It feels awful to think that you might not get a job you wanted because of your gender or the color of your skin doesn't it? This can be a moment of introspection if you let it. Imagine feeling that way almost every day of your life. There's a positive way and a negative to resolve the situation. The negative way is to impose hiring quotas, so that everyone--even white guys--feel the same fear of unfair denial. That'…

Thanks for the snarky link to your sources. That was uncalled for and entirely unhelpful. Most of the links I encountered cited that women left because it's a demanding work environment without a clear career path.

I have been in a position where I was overtly discriminated against because of my race and gender. It was in the early 90s and I was denied admission to a magnet elementary school that my older sister attended. The year I applied they took 50 out of 200. I scored 37th, but I wasn't chosen because diversity. There were lawsuits, and the practice was stopped. Now admissions are blind to race and gender. My younger brother also ended up attending that magnet program. It made a significant impact on the trajectory of my life, and it didn't feel any less terrible to be discriminated against because I am a white male.

A fairer chance based on merit isn't going to solve the gender / racial imbalance in tech. Tech is a meritocracy. Either your program works or it doesn't. The computer doesn't care at all whether or not you have "privilege."

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#354

Post by soundwave106 » Tue, Apr 26, 2016, 3:56 PM UTC

crpatino wrote: post #264

osweiller wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from an Eastern Europe and my family never was rich, I had to put in a tremendous effort to even get into the industry. I grew up in a small, very blue collar town (the sort that most people never escape). We lived on social assistance, at least until my mother killed herself and I went to live in foster homes. Eventually my father -- who later died from asbestos related cancer from his job -- let me move into a…

Privilege is multifactorial. There are such things as white privilege, and male privilege; but those are not the only (nor arguably, the most significant) privileges there are. Being "blue collar" and "from a small town" probably set you back in at least 3 or 4 different kinds of priviledges (as in economic, well learned, and urban/cosmopolitan). So, if you compare yourself to black women that had all advantages, yes…

>>Privilege is multifactorial. There are such things as white privilege, and male privilege; but those are not the only (nor arguably, the most significant) privileges there are.Well, that's exactly the problem with the "white male privilege" verbage: it's just one single angle of the global problem regarding social / ethnic class issues.

Even from an Euro-American perspective... When it comes down to it, who has more "privilege" or social status? A college educated Asian-American woman from an urban, wealthy family? Or a poor, rural uneducated white male from, say, Appalachia or the Deep South?

Yes, there are obviously people with lower "social standing" than the poor, rural, uneducated white male -- and color or sex does play a part. But the point is, sex and race are not the only factors that make up social status, even from a Euro-American angle.

If you factor class issues in the entire world, it gets even more complicated. Each area has their own quirks and social structure.

Unfortunately I find that many people who advance the "check your privilege" arguments are not very nuanced. Social status is complicated. So I think it does a disservice in the end. Again, let's take that a poor, rural, uneducated white male in Appalachia, no job since the coal mines shut down, on benefits, etc. They come across an article written by a college educated woman, in an urban area, probably making quite a bit more than he is. And this person is telling all white males to "check their white male privilege".

What do you think this person is going to think?

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#355

Post by dfox » Tue, Apr 26, 2016, 3:58 PM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #250

Being a 40+ developer myself, I find myself largely agreeing with this post. I guess I could quibble over some small details, but by and large, I think the author is spot on. The one thing I'll add to this, is to say that, for devs like us, things like Coursera, Udacity, EdX, etc. are really valuable. When you're a mid-career professional who already has strong technical chops in at least one area, "on demand educati…

For tech things I would say that just reading the documentation (or source if there isn't any useful documentation) is preferable to any online courses.

On my first meaningfully paid job, first actually useful thing I did was that I went into corporate archives and found documentation for Oracle 7i and Microstation 95 which I was supposed to be using. Somehow nobody else there even thought of reading the docs. (the fact that I somehow automated myself away in this job is another thing)

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#356

Post by naasking » Tue, Apr 26, 2016, 3:58 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #332

naasking wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A word loaded to mean 'undeserved advantage'. "Undeserving" is not part of any definition of privilege I've ever seen, not even the dictionary definition. I think that's just your personal bias against a meaning that isn't the same that others are intending.

n. A special advantage, immunity, permission, right, or benefit granted to or enjoyed by an individual, class, or caste. See Synonyms at right. n. Such an advantage, immunity, or right held as a prerogative of status or rank, and exercised to the exclusion or detriment of others

Like I said, whether they were deserving of those benefits does not feature in any of of those definitions.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#357

Post by htns » Tue, Apr 26, 2016, 3:59 PM UTC

shrewduser wrote: post #338

htns wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that a myth? Like pink and blue supposedly previously having been associated with the reverse genders.

not a myth, although popularly touted as a myth by people to whom this fact is inconvenient. it's very easy to google examples of racism towards irish and italian immigrants. https://www.google.com.au/search?q=irish+need+not+apply&sour... here's where the "myth myth" started and was easily debunked by a high school student http://www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/High-school-studen...

But that just confirms it as a a myth - "I really hate the Irish, so I'll pretend they aren't white"

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#358

Post by dfox » Tue, Apr 26, 2016, 4:00 PM UTC

stevetrewick wrote: post #88

Ignore the hype - but learn everything. Think for yourself - but go with the crowd. And don't forget the sunscreen. Oh, and XML was totally a buzzword in '97.

XML started to be really meaningful buzzword in '98 or '99. (with first really useful implementations in like 2000)

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#359

Post by saiya-jin » Tue, Apr 26, 2016, 4:01 PM UTC

snowwrestler wrote: post #209

osweiller wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from an Eastern Europe and my family never was rich, I had to put in a tremendous effort to even get into the industry. I grew up in a small, very blue collar town (the sort that most people never escape). We lived on social assistance, at least until my mother killed herself and I went to live in foster homes. Eventually my father -- who later died from asbestos related cancer from his job -- let me move into a…

Do you think that no women or minorities grew up in a small blue collar town, lived on social assistance, lost their parents, lived in a foster home? The concept of privilege does not mean "you did not earn what you have." It means "other people with circumstances like yours were prevented from earning what you have, because of their gender or ethnicity." It's not about tearing anyone down. It's about recognizing tha…

that's the thing here - who the fk is denied success in IT, which all this about? I am from east Europe too, currently living in Western Europe, and the only discrimination I ever saw in university and professional job was positive discrimination against women.

At school, that 1 girl we had in whole class out of 100 students was pampered with so much attention and had it so easy on verbal exams (written of course were equal as far as I can say). Everybody would love to have more girls, from teachers to students, but they couldn't care less. Economic studies were far more sexi rather than geeky IT guys.

Same when working - when hiring, female devs were so rare that there was very strong preference in female candidates (ie all that showed up were hired, but it's fair to say they were good... just not better than competing guys).

Right now, I am sitting in front of a consulting girl from Azerbaijan and a guy from Morocco. Both well performing and highly regarded in our company. This IS fair world, as much as we can do it. Not 100%, but damn good and far better than ever before. So stop whining and rather contribute.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#360

Post by AudaIbuTayi » Tue, Apr 26, 2016, 4:01 PM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #280

mhurron wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> basic rights we take for granted (for example, walking into a store and not being treated as a potential thief, or having prospective interviewers assume we're professional/literate/presentable) are actually privileges that many people or color don't have. You are aware that Irish and Eastern Europeans, and on and off through history Greek and Italian, have had all those same problems right? You know that 'White Pr…

I'll keep this polite and assume you're intelligent and informed, a courtesy you did not extend to me. You are aware that Irish and Eastern Europeans, and on and off through history Greek and Italian, have had all those same problems right? I'm very, very aware of that fact. Hey, for the record, I'm partly Welsh. The Welsh have been oppressed by everybody! They're pretty damn white. Literally nobody is denying that I…

> You probably thought it was an attack on white people.

Prima facie, the use of the term leads people to believe that an identifiable group of people (white people) has obtained things which they do not deserve (privilege). A typical human response to being told that another group has things which were unjustly obtained is resentment and hostility. This is inevitable and obvious. The term is by its construction divisive.

> It's not.

That's merely an assertion. The term is a tool. Some people use it to try to effect positive change for certain groups of people (I'm assuming this includes you). Some people very much can and do use it as a weapon to enact their idea of retribution.