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Homebrew now sends usage information to Google Analytics

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Re: Homebrew now sends usage information to Google Analytics

#281

Post by TheLogothete »

stephenr wrote: post #279
TheLogothete wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that my opinion is formed based on logic and my expertise and your opinion is based on... what exactly? >That means GA has a client IP for the user-agent When IP masking is enabled, Analytics removes the last octet of the user's IP address prior to its use and storage. SO... yeah. And I just LOVE how you selectively quote, so I'm gonna finish the quote for you: "It should be noted this does not directly contra…

> Except that my opinion is formed based on logic and my expertise and your opinion is based on... what exactly? The exact words from Google own privacy policy, and the fundamentals of how IP networking works? > It should be noted this does not directly contradict what GP claims I disagree with that interpretation. They specifically say that they use data collected: "We also use this information to offer you tailored…

You are so desperate to justify your thinking (not to me, mind you, to yourself) that you grasp for every straw possible, forgetting what the question was about along the way.

This particular question was about how you formed your opinion about Google using GA data to build advertising profiles. My opinion is formed based on my expertise in mining many terabytes of data and my experience in sourcing this data. Based on that experience I can say that GA data is not of interest to google because it is unreliable and they have better data already. Even if it was, they would have to stop themselves because it is just too damn risky (bankruptcy level risk) to use it.

So my opinion stems from my experience in this very business. And your opinion stems from where exactly? This is what I'm trying to show you. You have 0 idea what you are talking about but insist that you are right. Even further, you outright accuse google of lying when they say GA data is not used unless the webmaster explicitly opts in to share it. Why do they have that control in first place then?

Oh and btw, that quote about relevant search results and ads... you might want to check where it comes from before basing arguments off it. You know, if you want to have a coherent argument and not some tin foil conspiracy theory grasping desperately for whatever it can catch. Checking facts is a good thing, don't you agree?

Anyway, you will either admit it to yourself tomorrow, or you won't. I don't particularly care. I just wanted to see how far you will go in your justification attempt. Remember that just because you are allowed to have an opinion does not mean you must have one.

Re: Homebrew now sends usage information to Google Analytics

#282

Post by FilterSweep »

sneak wrote: post #264
mikemcquaid wrote: post #193

I'm the maintainer who added this. I apologise for the poor communication. I would have responded sooner but I've been on a plane for the last 10 hours. I'd hoped the documentation would have made clear our reasons for doing this but I feel the discomfort so since getting off my flight I've opened and merged three PRs ( https://github.com/Homebrew/install/pull/42 https://github.com/Homebrew/brew/pull/143 https://gith…

Why are you even collecting this information? Homebrew isn't some for-profit product trying to optimize its funnel. Keep doing what you were doing. You were doing a great job. There is no benefit to you or us to silently spy on us.

From the GitHub doc[0]:

> Homebrew is provided free of charge and run entirely by volunteers in their spare time. As a result, we do not have the resources to do detailed user studies of Homebrew users to decide on how best to design future features and prioritise current work. Anonymous aggregate user analytics allow us to prioritise fixes and features based on how, where and when people use Homebrew.

I read this as: "Google Business Development contacted us and offered us a sum of money for high-privilege-level analytic data on developers."

I would have rather homebrew extended the donation coffer cup on line 0 every time "brew update" or "brew install foo" was called. Much like how Wikipedia ends up getting me to donate each year. Part of me wonders if this was my fault for not donating.

[0] https://github.com/Homebrew/brew/blob/master/share/doc/homeb...

Re: Homebrew now sends usage information to Google Analytics

#283

Post by chr4 »

shizcakes wrote: post #203
eistrati wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I second that. It must be an opt-in feature.

I don't see why; you're tracked like this on nearly every website you visit unless you opt out. This isn't malicious.

Opt out is the problem: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11572181

Re: Homebrew now sends usage information to Google Analytics

#284

Post by stephenr »

TheLogothete wrote: post #281
stephenr wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except that my opinion is formed based on logic and my expertise and your opinion is based on... what exactly? The exact words from Google own privacy policy, and the fundamentals of how IP networking works? > It should be noted this does not directly contradict what GP claims I disagree with that interpretation. They specifically say that they use data collected: "We also use this information to offer you tailored…

You are so desperate to justify your thinking (not to me, mind you, to yourself) that you grasp for every straw possible, forgetting what the question was about along the way. This particular question was about how you formed your opinion about Google using GA data to build advertising profiles. My opinion is formed based on my expertise in mining many terabytes of data and my experience in sourcing this data. Based…

> So my opinion stems from my experience in this very business. And your opinion stems from where exactly?

For someone who claims to be experienced in the matter, you don't seem to know much about what Google does, even when they state explicitly what they do in their own privacy policy.

> You have 0 idea what you are talking about but insist that you are right. Even further, you outright accuse google of lying when they say GA data is not used unless the webmaster explicitly opts in to share it.

I never mentioned opt-in or opt-out. I said in general they re-use the data. The functionality is available, so common sense says you should assume its "enabled" (or Opt-In, in their language) for any site you visit, because you have no way to know that it isn't. I also never accused anyone of lying. I explicitly referenced Google's own privacy policy which says they use GA data for targeted ads.

> Oh and btw, that quote about relevant search results and ads... you might want to check where it comes from before basing arguments off it.

The quote comes from Google. I found you another one. This took me literally 10 seconds to find on https://www.google.com/intl/en/policies/privacy/#infocollect (emphasis mine):

> We and our partners use various technologies to collect and store information when you visit a Google service, and this may include using cookies or similar technologies to identify your browser or device. We also use these technologies to collect and store information when you interact with services we offer to our partners, such as advertising services or Google features that may appear on other sites. Our Google Analytics product helps businesses and site owners analyze the traffic to their websites and apps. When used in conjunction with our advertising services, such as those using the DoubleClick cookie, Google Analytics information is linked, by the Google Analytics customer or by Google, using Google technology, with information about visits to multiple sites.

> Checking facts is a good thing, don't you agree?

Yup, maybe you should try it some time.

> I just wanted to see how far you will go in your justification attempt.

I admit following a clearly referenced URL, using the browser's page search and reading a couple of paragraphs was a long way to go, but I'm all about going the distance.

Re: Homebrew now sends usage information to Google Analytics

#285

Post by mescalito »

I normally enjoyed the insight and comments of the thread more than the content of the article and don't comment that much.

But my personal opinion on this, only to share it and be heard possibly by the developers of homebrew, is that I honestly do not care about this. It's nice they are open about it, it's a hell of a tool and hey, if they want to track what I do to improve it, have my data.

I really don't see the opt-in/opt-out debate being so harsh on this. Because it's open source it should be opt-in? I really don't think so. Analytics are a valuable source of information for the developer and google provides a hell of a service for that. And you probably use several closed source tools that track you, sometimes without even telling you. Yes, you can really of external tools to block this, great for all of us those tools exists, you can use it for homebrew as well.

I wonder if all of the opt-in advocates don't use gmail for their email. I am pretty sure they do, and they are not worried about all of the tracking going on there? Or on other apps? Unless you really follow most if not all of stallman's computing principles[1], being furious about this, is, IMHO, disproportionate and a bit ungrateful.

So I am more than OK with opt-out. Nice that you wrote about it, nice that you provide a way to do it, and nice that you use your time to create such a great tool!

Kudos!

[1]: https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html

Re: Homebrew now sends usage information to Google Analytics

#286

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast »

stephenr wrote: post #271
TheLogothete wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has gone full circle and honestly is quite irritating at this point. People say that Google uses GA data for advertising, I say that this is not the case and then you just chose to ignore that. So I'm just gonna ask directly - can you show some evidence suggesting Google uses GA data for building advertising profiles or did you pull this opinion out of your ass? Because as someone who analyses marketing and adve…

> Because as someone who analyses marketing and advertising data, I can tell you that I strongly believe they do not use GA data in this way. You can choose to believe that, and I can believe that a huge company funded almost entirely by placing highly targeted adverts on third-party websites across the web has a vested interest in data collection. > THE WEBMASTER CAN CHOSE TO NOT SHARE IT WITH THEM. Calm your tits.…

> Calm your tits

What the fuck, Stephen.

Re: Homebrew now sends usage information to Google Analytics

#287

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast »

fit2rule wrote: post #247
madeofpalk wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what ~/.bashrc or ~/.bash_profile or (whatever it is for your shell) is for.

Yeah, I don't want to do that every single time I put home-brew on a machine somewhere, for every single user. Doesn't it have its own global config? I confess that I'm too miffed by this intrusion in my privacy to be bothered to find out ..

Are you perhaps looking for /etc/profile.

Re: Homebrew now sends usage information to Google Analytics

#288

Post by mortenlarsen »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #134
mortenlarsen wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Privacy should be the default.

Only if you're willing to pay for it. Otherwise, you trade privacy for convenience, or some other benefit. Its, of course, always your choice if you're willing to trade it for something.

There is a lot of free, open and convenient software that respects my privacy.

Do you think money or privacy violations must be part of the equation to make good software?

That is like the old argument against free/open software that I heard from a lot of people, back in the 90's. I thought we were past that.

Re: Homebrew now sends usage information to Google Analytics

#289

Post by stephenr »

GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #286
stephenr wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because as someone who analyses marketing and advertising data, I can tell you that I strongly believe they do not use GA data in this way. You can choose to believe that, and I can believe that a huge company funded almost entirely by placing highly targeted adverts on third-party websites across the web has a vested interest in data collection. > THE WEBMASTER CAN CHOSE TO NOT SHARE IT WITH THEM. Calm your tits.…

> Calm your tits What the fuck, Stephen.

What the fuck what the fuck?

Re: Homebrew now sends usage information to Google Analytics

#290

Post by abjorn »

fit2rule wrote: post #248
abjorn wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't you just put it in your .bashrc?

For every user on this machine? On every Mac in the house? Meh. What I want: "brew disable analytics" There, now I don't have to think about it any more, nor maintain a .profile/.bashrc, nor do it every single time for every user.

You would still need to do it for every user, anytime you create a new one. I fail to see how that's any different from, say `echo "export HOMEBREW_NO_ANALYTICS=1" >> .bashrc`

Of course, the better alternative IS for it to be opt-in, which it should be.

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