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Being a Developer After 40

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Re: Being a Developer After 40

#281

Post by ausjke »

ManlyBread wrote: post #105

The article was pretty good until this part. >If you are a white male remember all the privilege you have enjoyed since birth just because you were born that way. It is your responsibility to change the industry and its bias towards more inclusion. I'm from an Eastern Europe and my family never was rich, I had to put in a tremendous effort to even get into the industry. Assuming I got an easy ride simply because I'm…

The whole story is a decent read. I actually read from top to the bottom. As long as the whole idea makes sense, no need to pick a few sentences and enforce political correctness on them, that just missed the point in my opinion.

He is not a politician and is speaking for himself, and he has the right to say that I guess. Overall, a great write!

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#282

Post by eric_the_read »

interpol_p wrote: post #193
reefoctopus wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop calling it a problem. Why is it a problem that preferences differ? Is it a problem that more women aren't miners or plumbers?

Because we don't completely know whether preferences differ, or whether cultural biases cause those preferences to differ. I have a young boy and a girl. They are pushed into so many gendered roles from such a young age I have a really hard time trying to figure out what they actually like, versus what society tells them they should like. My son recently picked up a pink toy in a store and said "I can't have this one…

To add to the amusement/despair value, pink used to be considered a boy's colour during Victorian times, because it was considered a stronger, bolder colour, whereas blue was more delicate and feminine and thus suitable for girls.

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2014/10/pink-used-co...

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#283

Post by interpol_p »

j4kp07 wrote: post #258
kaitai wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gotta agree. You don't have to be a racist to benefit from racism; just look at the Federal Housing Administrations redlining policies and look at the great rates on home mortgages your grandparents got (if they're white Americans). Why do people view this as an attack on their character? It's just a bunch of facts, spelled out in legislation.

> look at the great rates on home mortgages your grandparents got (if they're white Americans) I am a "white American" and my grandfather grew up in a home with dirt floors then built his home with his own hands (twice, because his first home burned down). Quit making such pompous assumptions.

No one is attacking your grandfather. The previous poster is simply pointing out the better mortgage rates many white Americans of his generation would have received as a direct result of the racist culture.

From Wikipedia [1]

> For example, in Atlanta in the 1980s, a Pulitzer Prize-winning series of articles by investigative-reporter Bill Dedman showed that banks would often lend to lower-income whites but not to middle- or upper-income blacks.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#284

Post by skywhopper »

ManlyBread wrote: post #105

The article was pretty good until this part. >If you are a white male remember all the privilege you have enjoyed since birth just because you were born that way. It is your responsibility to change the industry and its bias towards more inclusion. I'm from an Eastern Europe and my family never was rich, I had to put in a tremendous effort to even get into the industry. Assuming I got an easy ride simply because I'm…

You had it easier than someone with your original circumstances who was a minority or a woman, is the point. You are highly unlikely to be sexually harassed or threatened on a regular basis. You are highly unlikely to be insulted, questioned, or dismissed because of the color of your skin. Other people aren't so lucky. If you feel upset about this extremely mild general statement about white men, try multiplying that by 10, add it to every part of your life, and you might start to experience what people who don't look like you live with.

It's not about arbitrary quotas. An industry overwhelmingly populated by white men is missing out on 90% of the talent in the world. Programming ain't the NBA.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#285

Post by blub »

lbebber wrote: post #234
maratd wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but 1- it doesn't compare to what, for example, black or chinese people or native americans suffered historically And that doesn't compare to what Jews went through 50 years ago. What's your point? There's always a bigger sob story around the corner. You deal with it and move on . The moving on part is important. > whereas prejudice against "people of color" is still very much alive. And that prejudice will amplify…

The point is that he was saying that groups of white people had the same as people of color, and that's not true. They had it bad, but it's not remotely comparable.

Ever heard of a thing called the Holocaust? Or the purges in the Soviet Union or any other ex-communist country?

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#286

Post by geofft »

mhurron wrote: post #181
JohnBooty wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from an Eastern Europe and my family never was rich, I had to put in a tremendous effort to even get into the industry. Assuming I got an easy ride simply because I'm white is a pretty racist statement I was about to patiently type out another "hey, you did work hard and you did earn your success - 'white privilege' doesn't mean things were handed to you easily; it means that even though your life has been hard y…

> basic rights we take for granted (for example, walking into a store and not being treated as a potential thief, or having prospective interviewers assume we're professional/literate/presentable) are actually privileges that many people or color don't have. You are aware that Irish and Eastern Europeans, and on and off through history Greek and Italian, have had all those same problems right? You know that 'White Pr…

I was going to say something about how I occasionally use the phrase "white privilege" and I agree with you, but I think I actually just tend to use "privilege". You're right, in different times and places there's a lot of change in who is privileged. And it's definitely not a two-level system. I don't think the word "privilege" necessarily implies it, but it's used like that a lot, and I think that's unfortunate, and it's definitely a simplistic view of the world.

For instance, Irish-Americans did not have a particularly great time in the US in the mid-19th century by any means, but they had a much better time than African-Americans. They faced serious discrimination, but they rarely were assumed to be runaway slaves.

I think it's useful to acknowledge that even today, some groups of people have basic privileges like being assumed not to be a thief that everyone ought to have, and we can acknowledge that without reducing it to a simple white-nonwhite line.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#287

Post by JohnBooty »

maratd wrote: post #214
mhurron wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> basic rights we take for granted (for example, walking into a store and not being treated as a potential thief, or having prospective interviewers assume we're professional/literate/presentable) are actually privileges that many people or color don't have. You are aware that Irish and Eastern Europeans, and on and off through history Greek and Italian, have had all those same problems right? You know that 'White Pr…

> It jsut paints such a simplistic view of the world, not a real one, but one that is useful for rhetoric. Bingo. Race is just one facet anyway. We're all born with various advantages and disadvantages, none of which we have any control over. Just as an example, some people are better looking than others ... and those people tend to have an advantage, because they're better looking. They can get better jobs, better p…

> Bingo. Race is just one facet anyway.

There's no part of examining privilege that says race is the only facet of one's existence soooooo at least you don't disagree with it there.

To even make a statement like that is like getting mad at "breast cancer awareness" because "it's not the only kind of cancer."

I can't emphasize enough that literally nobody is claiming that race is the only facet of one's existence.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#288

Post by vinceguidry »

> "Ok, let's make a rails app" > "Oh, I need rails first" > "Oh, I need rbenv first" > "Oh I need brew" > "Oh I need xcode tools"

As a Rails dev, this made me chuckle, yes, I've put a lot of hours into troubleshooting dev setups. But this is the wrong example. All of these are installed with one line on the terminal. And really, there are far simpler web stacks to pick up without even having to leave Ruby. Sinatra on system Ruby works just fine. All you do is 'gem install sinatra', open up a text editor and go.

Really, the complexity you have to watch out for is the complexity you impose yourself. Choosing the wrong tools for the job or the wrong abstractions. For many applications, Rails is overkill.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#289

Post by snowwrestler »

osweiller wrote: post #243
snowwrestler wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think that no women or minorities grew up in a small blue collar town, lived on social assistance, lost their parents, lived in a foster home? The concept of privilege does not mean "you did not earn what you have." It means "other people with circumstances like yours were prevented from earning what you have, because of their gender or ethnicity." It's not about tearing anyone down. It's about recognizing tha…

Do you think that no ... I have not assumed anyone else's privilege, or lack of privilege. I haven't made assumptions, demanding group guilt or deference, based upon a simplistic caricature or stereotype. It's not about tearing anyone down. I read a statement telling me to remember all of the privilege I have enjoyed since birth. My experience differs, and these sorts of simplified claims fail (the same sort of simpl…

People ask white guys to remember the privilege they experience because it is invisible to them.

No one walks around every day thinking, "My whole life, I've never been attacked by a tiger. Thank god." But people who have been attacked by a tiger certainly remember it!

That's an extreme example to illustrate what privilege means in this context. It's the absence of challenges that other people face. In that respect it is indeed an assumption, in that it is an unexamined filter through which white guys perceive the world.

It doesn't mean white guys don't face challenges too. You've had your own tiger attacks, plenty of them it sounds like. So imagine sitting in a room with a guy the same age as you--but he was raised by healthy, wealthy, devoted parents, went to the best private schools, raised his first seed round from his dad's friends. "God, I've worked so hard to get where I am," he says. "I can't stand it when people say I haven't earned everything I've got."

Wouldn't you feel a bit resentful toward that person? Give me a break, right? He was born on 3rd base and thinks he hit a triple. That's a form of privilege, really the original form of privilege, the one that defined the word.

What we are coming to understand now is that there are other forms of privilege. Just like that guy didn't choose to be born to rich parents, he also didn't choose to born a white guy. Neither did I. But there is ample evidence that being a white guy is an advantage, at least in U.S. society, and certainly in the tech field today. Call it: being born a little ways down the first base line. I've had an easier time beating the throw to first than someone born closer to home base--even if I don't realize it, even if I still ran as fast as I can. (extended metaphor alert)

What would you want from that rich guy? Some awareness--a willingness to listen to other perspectives and life stories. Some introspection--a willingness to compare and integrate them with his own personal experiences. Some empathy--appreciation for others. And fairness--a willingness to consider people for partnerships, collaboration, work, ideas, even if they didn't go to the same fancy schools, or wear expensive dress shirts every day. Even if they have a totally different life story. Even if they look different, talk different. And ideally advocacy--telling his rich buddies to think about these things, to not be so quick to hire folks who mostly look and talk just like themselves, to give people a chance and actively work on inclusiveness.

So I don't think it's an issue of trying to force feed anything. I'm asking you to consider that there is more to the situation than you might have experienced or thought about. If you're in a position to deliver the things I list above, then some other person who is working hard might really appreciate it.

edit: crpatino puts it much better than I did:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11572275

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#290

Post by StargazyPi »

ManlyBread wrote: post #105

The article was pretty good until this part. >If you are a white male remember all the privilege you have enjoyed since birth just because you were born that way. It is your responsibility to change the industry and its bias towards more inclusion. I'm from an Eastern Europe and my family never was rich, I had to put in a tremendous effort to even get into the industry. Assuming I got an easy ride simply because I'm…

I respectfully disagree; even though the (often inaccurate) generalisation of white male privilege does not necessarily apply to you, the tech world has an inclusion problem along many different lines: education level, affluence, race, gender to name but a few. I tend to think that those of us who've made it into the industry, whilst pushing against one or more of those biases, (including you in this, because of your socio-economic background) should be helping others from similar situations enter the field.

Just because we, personally, have made it, doesn't mean we shouldn't make the path easier for others.

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