91–100 of 583 posts
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No, that would be just as bad. You pay for results, not for where the person lives.
No, you pay the minimum amount you can to get the job done to a satisfactory standard.
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No. On-site, in Zurich. They have arrangements with authorities to get work permits more easily (it made a lot of debate in the press). They "import" qualified workers, paid Swiss salaries. If price was the only matter, that wouldn't happen - Google would open a development office there instead (they have smaller ones, but the Zurich office is the largest that is not in Mountain View).
> No. On-site, in Zurich. Yeah, so I assumed. Your "very much untrue" remark is very much off the GP's point then, which was that those considering remote outsourcing to Eastern countries do that mainly for the cost reasons. Not that these countries lack the talent worth paying for when onsite .
Thanks for showing me the problem with my argument.
I have seen developers threatened to have their work visas not renewed if they did not work faster That was an eye-opener. For some reason I thought Switzerland was a worker's utopia with the relatively higher salaries.
I had the same initial reaction but if you think it through not having your visa renewed effectively comes down to being fired, i.e. the company terminating their dealings with you. Doesn't make it better (at all), but it's essentially just the threat of firing albeit with more weight behind it for the visa workers. Not the company calling the visa office about you or holding on to your passport, etc...
I liked the post, and empathized with some truths in it. I saved up and bought a used Commodore PET in 1977 at age 13. I taught myself assembler, c, basic, and went on to buy a Vic-20, C-64, Amiga 1000, Amiga 500, Mac PowerPC, NCR 3125 (386 pen-based tablet in 1995 or 1996!), and then read up on AI in the 1980s - Neural Networks, GAs, GP, Expert systems, Fuzzy Systems, Chaos, Complexity, etc... I was using Minix on m…
I have miles to go before I sleep.. I like the reference to Stopping by woods on a snowy evening.. Great to see u made yourself a good life in east java. My grandpa lived in Solo and my dad in Jakarta. I tried so much to move there. But couldnt make it. I am still stuck at the hamsters wheel in London. Hopefully i can get a fully remote job and then move to Indonesia. I can only dream ! /dream
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The manager's rant part aside, the reason to outsource to the Eastern Europe, Ukraine and Russia is and has always been the rates.
That's very much untrue. EDIT: I stand corrected - this misses the point. Sure, wages are lower than elsewhere (especially Switzerland), but the quality of engineers in eastern europe is very high. Case in point: Google Switzerland employs lots of eastern europeans with Swiss-level wages . That wouldn't make any sense if the only reason was money. EDIT: My math and electronics teachers (both women, data point) in my…
That wouldn't make any sense if
the only reason was money.
Fewer Swiss would work for tech wages, because they can more easily get jobs in banking, finance, law, medical that pay better and/or are easier. Or hail from old money, and are artists, musicians, run galleries ... A similar phenomenon is at play in tech in the US, which is full of foreigners from EE, India etc.
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Saying 'you will live like a king' is not the smartest thing. He should have said: 'Please consider that your local living costs are much lower than in Switzerland. We incorporate those differences in our offered rate like every other company does. Thanks for your understanding.' So the tone was—yes—unprofessional, the attitude not. And even if this attitude is debatable, you have to allow the other party to express…
I find it quite bizarre that remote workers living in a country with lower cost of living are expected to take lower pay than locals while doing the same work and offering the same value. Otherwise yes, people are allowed to express silly things and one shouldn't prevent them from doing so, especially when they show their true colors. Looks to me like they dodged a bullet.
EDIT: funny as it is, my rates were probably a third less than what a local consultant would have charged them.
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Yet, your sarcastic summary is a breath of fresh air in the HN comments...
I wouldn't call it sarcasm. I had the same feeling while reading. The OP contains a lot of opinions about a lot of different subjects. An amalgamation.
And if you mean by amalgamating that he united or tied together a lot of different opinions on a lot of different things, how is that unpleasant?
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Sad as it may be your being based on a low income country was probably one of the main reasons they approached you. And it is quite universal so I wouldn't attribute it to unprofessionalism. From company's point of view it makes perfect sense to outsource to the best quality/price ratio.
Maybe at double the price he would still be the best quality /price ratio.
"Say 'I won’t do what you tell me' and change jobs. There are fantastic workplaces out there; not a lot, but they exist. [...] Do not let a bad job kill your enthusiasm. It is not worth it. Disobey and move on." Especially Europeans have problems thinking like this. I always advise engineers to keep on looking for better offers / jobs the moment they take a new job. Instead many hibernate in a job for 3-5 years witho…