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College Sex-Assault Trials Belong in Court, Not Campus (2014)

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Re: College Sex-Assault Trials Belong in Court, Not Campus (2014)

#91

Post by chris_wot »

superuser2 wrote: post #30
forrestthewoods wrote: post #20

Title IX requires schools to perform some level of investigation. This is backwards. Title IX should FORBID schools for investigating and mandate forwarding of information to the police.

The purpose of internal disciplinary systems is to have a weaker burden of proof. Meeting "beyond a reasonable doubt" is very difficult when the victim and perpetrator are in something resembling a romantic relationship and behind closed doors, to the point that almost no rapists would be found guilty. Schools instead use the standard of "more likely than not" to return a finding of "responsible," which means the sch…

In other words, it allows them to get rid of who they see to be "undesirable".

There's a reason why the legal system requires a certainly level of certainty before a conviction stands!

Re: College Sex-Assault Trials Belong in Court, Not Campus (2014)

#92

Post by tomp »

reso wrote: post #71
CthulhuOvermind wrote: post #14

"The legal verdict on whether sex is non consensual still often rests on the perspective of the alleged perpetrator rather than the experience of the victim." I'm not sure I entirely understand this quote to its fullest. It is being argued that it is the experience of the victim that matters if sex is consensual. Isn't this quote logically wrong? Consensual by definitions means both parties agreed. But is the author…

No other comments have directly addressed the quote you referenced. My interpretation is it is saying that rape cases are prosecuted about the intent of the perpetrator. Aka, they are convicted if it can be shown that they intended to commit rape, or knowingly committed rape, and acquited otherwise. This puts the standard of conviction much higher than other crimes, because lots of crimes can be committed unknowingly…

It's perfectly possible for someone to be raped without their partner being the rapist.

For example, imagine two people enjoy rape roleplay, but don't decide on a safe-word. In the middle of the act, the receiving partner changes their mind and starts screaming "no" and "stop". The giving partner interprets this as part of the roleplay, which makes perfect sense, and continues.

Who's guilty/victim here? (Hint: it's a trick question - both are guilty of stupidity for not choosing a safe word.)

Re: College Sex-Assault Trials Belong in Court, Not Campus (2014)

#94

Post by emp_zealoth »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #58
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you define drunk as you intend it in this sentence? People seem to be very loose with this phrase recently and it's impossible to tell if they're doing so intentionally for political reasons, or if they're just not very good at communicating what they mean. Drunk can mean someone has had 1 beer (e.g. drunk driving in many locations). It can also mean aggressively or flamboyantly out-of-character after several dri…

As made explicit in the sexual assault policies of various US universities, a female is unable to consent if she's had any alcohol (the "1 beer" model of being drunk). It is not a defense, or grounds for a counterclaim, that the male might have been equally or more drunk. (I say made explicit; the "any alcohol" threshold is what's made explicit. The wording of formal policies is generally scrupulously gender-neutral,…

What the actual fuck. Are those people out of their goddamn minds?

So any girl can basically claim she had one shot if she feels like ruining someone's life and make an innocent man into a "rapist"?

What if it's two lesbians that shared a beer? Do the universe collapse or something?

The arbitraryness and possibilities of malicious abuse just blow my goddamn brain.

Re: College Sex-Assault Trials Belong in Court, Not Campus (2014)

#95

Post by reso »

fsaneq2 wrote: post #72
oconnore wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the discrepancy comes from advocacy thought vs. legal thought [1]. When advocating for rape victims, who are severely disadvantaged in these situations, you might make a statement like "we need to listen to the woman's perspective". As has been pointed out, that statement is a heuristic on several levels: the woman is often, but not always, the victim; and from a legal standpoint, there are of course other th…

> "When advocating for rape victims, who are severely disadvantaged in these situations" Curious if you have a way to back up the claim the accusers are severely disadvantaged? Based on how it is at Stanford and many universities in the US, the system is certainly stacked in the accuser's favor. See, for example: https://www.thefire.org/stanford-trains-student-jurors-that-... . This leads to terrible mistakes, Joe Lo…

There are several well regarded sources that show that the crime -> conviction rate for rape is shockingly low, the main bottlenecks being: reporting (because the victims are heavily disincentivized from reporting for a variety of reasons), decision to bring charges or not by prosecutors, and conviction rates once in trial. I don't have them handy but I'll try to come back to this tomorrow.

Re: College Sex-Assault Trials Belong in Court, Not Campus (2014)

#96

Post by n72 »

elcapitan wrote: post #84

Not completely off-topic, but: Is there an api-based HN client/site that can filter out certain topics?

I've been mulling over creating such a thing. I would like something just about programming. No valley gossip and other off topic stuff. The biggest problem as I see it is that posts aren't tagged/categorized. I suppose one solution is applying some kind of bayseian filter to the linked article to figure out whether its a programming article or not.

Re: College Sex-Assault Trials Belong in Court, Not Campus (2014)

#97

Post by chris_wot »

emp_zealoth wrote: post #94
thaumasiotes wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As made explicit in the sexual assault policies of various US universities, a female is unable to consent if she's had any alcohol (the "1 beer" model of being drunk). It is not a defense, or grounds for a counterclaim, that the male might have been equally or more drunk. (I say made explicit; the "any alcohol" threshold is what's made explicit. The wording of formal policies is generally scrupulously gender-neutral,…

What the actual fuck. Are those people out of their goddamn minds? So any girl can basically claim she had one shot if she feels like ruining someone's life and make an innocent man into a "rapist"? What if it's two lesbians that shared a beer? Do the universe collapse or something? The arbitraryness and possibilities of malicious abuse just blow my goddamn brain.

Well, this is why it goes before a court. There needs to be proof or lack of reasonable doubt that the victim was intoxicated.

Re: College Sex-Assault Trials Belong in Court, Not Campus (2014)

#98

Post by chris_wot »

sambe wrote: post #89
mc32 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still not entirely impossible for a person without a male reproductive organ to engage in active penetrative sex with the aid of well, sexual devices which mimic the shape or even cruder devices. That's to say, I don't believe, but could be wrong, they stipulate being naturally born or some such uneasy language.

I believe it actually requires a penis too. Quick Google suggests this is still true.

Not true. The FBI's definition is:

"The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim." [1]

1. https://www.justice.gov/opa/blog/updated-definition-rape

Re: College Sex-Assault Trials Belong in Court, Not Campus (2014)

#99

Post by ck2 »

Of course they do, just like when it occurs in the military.

That's why we have a justice system.

Anywhere else is a matter of other people trying to exercise political power over outcomes and corrupt the process so it has lesser impact.

That's why when you pour money into third party systems like the VA, you weaken the original system (public hospitals) by taking funding away from them that could have helped everyone. Stop making circumventions.

Re: College Sex-Assault Trials Belong in Court, Not Campus (2014)

#100

Post by elcapitan »

n72 wrote: post #96
elcapitan wrote: post #84

Not completely off-topic, but: Is there an api-based HN client/site that can filter out certain topics?

I've been mulling over creating such a thing. I would like something just about programming. No valley gossip and other off topic stuff. The biggest problem as I see it is that posts aren't tagged/categorized. I suppose one solution is applying some kind of bayseian filter to the linked article to figure out whether its a programming article or not.

Yeah, I was contemplating the same.

I think for just filtering out, having rule-based blacklisting of keywords would suffice for 95%. Of course it would be much nicer to have classification and then also be able to positively switch between certain categories (say, AI, programming languages etc).

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