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Apple admits use of child labour in China

telegraph.co.uk

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Re: Apple admits use of child labour in China

#61

Post by philwelch »

yequalsx wrote: post #58
philwelch wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple may not own the factories (why the fuck would they, they're not a manufacturing company) but they do what they can to ensure children don't work in the factories that build their products. They've stopped doing business with the contractors that were using child labor. This story is the moral equivalent of turning "Apple fires employee for kicking co-worker in crotch" to "Apple caught kicking employees in crotc…

Indeed, they shouldn't own the factory. If they owned the factory their bottom line might be affected. People might start asking uncomfortable questions about the pay of those employees. The current arrangement allows they to say, "We didn't hire these kids, it's not our fault. Why the fuck would we own the factory? "

You seem to be implying that Apple deliberately contracts out their manufacturing specifically to exploit child labor. I find that absolutely contrary to the evidence--in particular, if Apple were doing that, wouldn't they try to cover this up instead of auditing the manufacturers themselves and making these abuses public? As it stands, Apple goes out of their way to ask the uncomfortable questions.

There are lots of perfectly non-cynical reasons to outsource manufacturing--or for that matter, anything your business itself isn't exceptionally good at.

Re: Apple admits use of child labour in China

#62

Post by Dove »

yequalsx wrote: post #56
Enra2 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US and the rest of the west experienced unprecedented per capita BNP growth since around the time western countries banned child labour. This is the reason for increased living standards. It would not have mattered much in the long run who prevailed because rich (by the standards of 1850 we pretty much all are) parents don't let their children work full time in factories.

When I say the U.S. became a better country by outlawing child labor this had nothing to do with economics. We became better in a moral sense. We Americans equate, too often, the concept of better in a money sense. This is a bad trait amongst us. (I'm not saying you have this bad trait.)

I am not completely sure we are better off. Being barred from meaningful work is to the moral detriment of precocious kids.

Not that we should let people in general subject themselves to danger they don't understand, and kids might lack judgement about that. And education absolutely shouldn't be blown off. But there's something appealing to me about kids being able to work real jobs if they're willing and capable.

Something like this . . . http://www.bigheadpress.com/eft?page=14

Re: Apple admits use of child labour in China

#63

Post by Auzy »

jballanc wrote: post #36

Please, if you are in favor of child labour and worker exploitation, the best thing you could do is express your outrage at Apple for independently auditing, investigating, and punishing their suppliers for these practices. I think all American companies should know that, if they take it upon themselves to reveal what is already happening in China in an attempt to right the wrong , they will be rewarded with sensatio…

Actually, I'm not sure I believe the "pro-Apple" story entirely. It states "During most of our audits, suppliers stated that Apple was the only company that had ever audited their facility for supplier responsibility".

Seriously, who the hell asks their suppliers if they have been audited by other clients?

I think its great Apple audited their supplier, but I'm not convinced we have the full story (in fact, its possible they were tipped off in this case too, and that's why the age audit was initiated). I should also add that we shouldn't praise hardware companies for performing an audit once or twice. Furthermore, they certainly aren't penalising their suppliers for their poor working conditions!

All that will happen is a few underage workers will stop working. The living conditions will still be a joke, workers mistreated, and the dodgy supplier wont suffer in any way (other than needing to find replacements).

Re: Apple admits use of child labour in China

#64

Post by yequalsx »

philwelch wrote: post #61
yequalsx wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, they shouldn't own the factory. If they owned the factory their bottom line might be affected. People might start asking uncomfortable questions about the pay of those employees. The current arrangement allows they to say, "We didn't hire these kids, it's not our fault. Why the fuck would we own the factory? "

You seem to be implying that Apple deliberately contracts out their manufacturing specifically to exploit child labor. I find that absolutely contrary to the evidence--in particular, if Apple were doing that, wouldn't they try to cover this up instead of auditing the manufacturers themselves and making these abuses public? As it stands, Apple goes out of their way to ask the uncomfortable questions. There are lots of…

American companies contract out factory work so they can wash their hands when improprieties show up. They know this shit goes on and their quest for greater profits is more powerful than their social conscience.

Apple could easily run the factory itself. If this meant a loss in profit then we must ask ourselves why it would mean a loss in profit. It would mean a loss in profit because Apple itself would never run a factory that was unsafe or exploited the workers. And this is the reason Apple and other Western companies share in the blame.

Re: Apple admits use of child labour in China

#65

Post by yequalsx »

philwelch wrote: post #59
yequalsx wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one said anything about forced labor. I included it in a list of things that it is immoral to benefit from. In that list of things was child labor; the point of the discussion. Sorry for not making this clearer. I should have left it out. Corporations aren't building factories in China so that China benefits. They are building the factories so that they benefit. There are lots of reports of forced labor in China,…

"What we could do is make trade contingent on a base level of standards being met." That's exactly what Apple does, and that's exactly why you're reading this story about Apple, instead of Asus or Lenovo or any other company--because Apple, unlike almost every other company, does the audits and enforces the standards on their contractors.

After rereading the article and reading the comments on this thread I'm inclined to agree with you as far as it pertains to Apple. The overall point I made applies though. Not necessarily to Apple itself but to behavior of Western companies in general.

Re: Apple admits use of child labour in China

#66

Post by bravura »

philwelch wrote: post #48
bravura wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How completely repulsive is child labor? Is that worse, or it is worse to deny being the father of your child, and being a deadbeat dad who forces your baby's momma to support your child using welfare? "Jobs also has a daughter, Lisa Brennan-Jobs (born 1978), from his relationship with Bay Area painter Chrisann Brennan. She briefly raised their daughter on welfare when Jobs denied paternity, claiming that he was ster…

I don't think anyone considers Jobs a morally exemplary person for that, but there's no point bringing it up in a totally unrelated discussion.

I slept on it, and I stand by my comment.

The moral character of the company is being discussed here. The moral character of the CEO is completely germane to this discussion.

Re: Apple admits use of child labour in China

#67

Post by philwelch »

yequalsx wrote: post #64
philwelch wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be implying that Apple deliberately contracts out their manufacturing specifically to exploit child labor. I find that absolutely contrary to the evidence--in particular, if Apple were doing that, wouldn't they try to cover this up instead of auditing the manufacturers themselves and making these abuses public? As it stands, Apple goes out of their way to ask the uncomfortable questions. There are lots of…

American companies contract out factory work so they can wash their hands when improprieties show up. They know this shit goes on and their quest for greater profits is more powerful than their social conscience. Apple could easily run the factory itself. If this meant a loss in profit then we must ask ourselves why it would mean a loss in profit. It would mean a loss in profit because Apple itself would never run a…

"Apple could easily run the factory itself. If this meant a loss in profit then we must ask ourselves why it would mean a loss in profit. It would mean a loss in profit because Apple itself would never run a factory that was unsafe or exploited the workers. And this is the reason Apple and other Western companies share in the blame."

This is a fallacious and ignorant argument. To understand why, stop and consider why things like AWS and Google Apps exist, just for starters. Then think about why Apple doesn't own their own cargo ships for international distribution, and why Apple uses FedEx rather than driving their own delivery trucks. There's no essential reason that manufacturing is any different. Apple's a design, development, and marketing company, not a manufacturing company. They don't know shit about manufacturing and they wouldn't be able to accomplish much by hiring the people who do.

If you'd really rather buy a laptop from a company that runs their own manufacturing, buy a Lenovo. Of course, they're manufactured in China, and Lenovo doesn't do anything to audit the labor practices of their own factories, so we'll never know what goes on in there. But at least they're not evading responsibility for things they'll never tell us about.

Re: Apple admits use of child labour in China

#68

Post by philwelch »

Auzy wrote: post #63
jballanc wrote: post #36

Please, if you are in favor of child labour and worker exploitation, the best thing you could do is express your outrage at Apple for independently auditing, investigating, and punishing their suppliers for these practices. I think all American companies should know that, if they take it upon themselves to reveal what is already happening in China in an attempt to right the wrong , they will be rewarded with sensatio…

Actually, I'm not sure I believe the "pro-Apple" story entirely. It states "During most of our audits, suppliers stated that Apple was the only company that had ever audited their facility for supplier responsibility". Seriously, who the hell asks their suppliers if they have been audited by other clients? I think its great Apple audited their supplier, but I'm not convinced we have the full story (in fact, its possi…

"Seriously, who the hell asks their suppliers if they have been audited by other clients?"

Who says anyone asked? If I was the only company auditing my suppliers, they would probably say "I don't understand why you're doing this; none of our other clients have ever audited us."

Re: Apple admits use of child labour in China

#69

Post by yequalsx »

philwelch wrote: post #67
yequalsx wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American companies contract out factory work so they can wash their hands when improprieties show up. They know this shit goes on and their quest for greater profits is more powerful than their social conscience. Apple could easily run the factory itself. If this meant a loss in profit then we must ask ourselves why it would mean a loss in profit. It would mean a loss in profit because Apple itself would never run a…

"Apple could easily run the factory itself. If this meant a loss in profit then we must ask ourselves why it would mean a loss in profit. It would mean a loss in profit because Apple itself would never run a factory that was unsafe or exploited the workers. And this is the reason Apple and other Western companies share in the blame." This is a fallacious and ignorant argument. To understand why, stop and consider why…

It's not an ignorant argument. Of course Apple isn't going to own or control every piece of the puzzle for getting its products here. But there is a reason their factories are in China and not in a country that has, you know, actual labor standards. Steve Jobs needs more money and people like you need cheaper products. I'm sorry. They don't own the factory so they are absolved of guilt and people like you can shop without thinking about the bad externalities with the current arrangement.

Re: Apple admits use of child labour in China

#70

Post by yequalsx »

philwelch wrote: post #67
yequalsx wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American companies contract out factory work so they can wash their hands when improprieties show up. They know this shit goes on and their quest for greater profits is more powerful than their social conscience. Apple could easily run the factory itself. If this meant a loss in profit then we must ask ourselves why it would mean a loss in profit. It would mean a loss in profit because Apple itself would never run a…

"Apple could easily run the factory itself. If this meant a loss in profit then we must ask ourselves why it would mean a loss in profit. It would mean a loss in profit because Apple itself would never run a factory that was unsafe or exploited the workers. And this is the reason Apple and other Western companies share in the blame." This is a fallacious and ignorant argument. To understand why, stop and consider why…

These standard imperial justifications you and others give are part of the reasons why we are looked upon negatively by the developing world. We have exploited on a massive scale and very few Americans/Europeans care. We are a hug part of the problem and out collective morality is so poor that we actually buy the argument, 'We don't actually do the exploitation, we pay someone else to do it for us.' This is a shitty country.
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