Live data from Hacker News

Nearly all new diesel cars exceed official pollution limits

theguardian.com

101–110 of 133 posts

Re: Nearly all new diesel cars exceed official pollution limits

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a different solution, but I don't know if it would be better. How do you think it's better? VW doesn't want their cars going into limp mode. They don't want customers calling up asking why their car is acting funny. They don't want to increase the maintenance load on their customers. They don't want customers coming in for unnecessary service appointments (especially for stuff they wouldn't be able to charge for…

See my reply above, I'm inclined to believe that storing enough DEF for correct dosing through a 10,000 mile service interval may not be feasible for a small car. After hearing about this regulation it seems an obvious reason why they would keep the cheat enabled even after adding a DEF system.

> I'm inclined to believe that storing enough DEF for correct dosing through a 10,000 mile service interval may not be feasible for a small car.

It is feasible and they already do it.

Re: Nearly all new diesel cars exceed official pollution limits

#102
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The result is simple: Small Diesel cars can’t exist legally in the US. And that is, of course, intentional. To keep some of the foreign competition away.

Because American companies can't make diesel cars?

> Because American companies can't make diesel cars?

If they can, they're keeping it a secret.

My family bought a 1982 GM diesel. It was an absolutely atrocious car. Everyone that bought these diesels got burned. Lessons were learned.

"Everyone knows" that American buyers won't buy a diesel, just like "everyone knows" that American buyers won't buy a wagon.

Re: Nearly all new diesel cars exceed official pollution limits

#103
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the Guardian neglects to add is that (IIRC) the German auto industry had placed a big bet on diesel engines as far back as the early '80s, and that the German government has enormous clout in the EU and seems to love German export industries with the same fervour that the US and UK governments adore their national financial sectors.

Are you sure this is the case? AFAIK all modern diesels are based on electronically controlled common rail which was originally designed by FIAT, even if it ended up being licensed to Bosch. What I mean is, probably all the european auto industry invested in diesel at a time when gasoline was considered a lot worse than diesel in terms of pollution, and taxation greatly favoured diesel vs gasoline in terms of fuel pr…

Hmm. Of course now I can't find my original source. :/ According to this article https://ranwhenparked.net/2013/07/22/30-years-ago-bmw-launch... Mercedes' and BMW's interest in car diesel engines goes back to the 1970s, though Peugeot was there too. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_the_di... is oddly written and fairly uncited, but it does state "The diesel car markets are the same ones who pioneered various developments (Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Peugeot/Citroën, Fiat, Alfa Romeo, Volkswagen Group)".

Moving towards the politics, Rüdiger K. W. Wurzel's Environmental policy-making in Britain, Germany and the European Union's Chapter 5, "The catalytic converter versus the lean-burn engine controversy" seems very informative. Particularly the section "The diesel engine", which contains this:

"In America and Japan, diesel cars almost disappeared from the market in the 1970s after the adoption of stringent limit values for carcinogenic particulates, although this was disputed by the car industry. The EU introduced relatively lenient particulate limit values in the late 1980s. The German government demanded the [Best Available Technology] option for both petrol and diesel cars. However, after heavy lobbying from Mercedes and Volkswagen, fiscal incentives were granted not only for the three-way catalytic converter but for diesel cars which met the lenient EU particulate limits."

(Seen through Google Books at https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0719073340 )

Industry and Politics in West Germany: Toward the Third Republic by Peter J. Katzenstein (seen at https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0801495954 ) adds

"Moreover, since diesel engines get the same break, the European regulation also favours those German producers who are leaders in diesel technology, especially Daimler Benz and VW."

However, Wurzel clearly asserts that the move towards US-style catalytic converters on petrol cars in Europe (which is apparently what first made diesels attractive as a regulatory end-run) was initiated by Germany in the teeth of opposition from German car makers (especially Volkswagen): there was a perception in the UK government that Germany was obliging its automakers in this, but it was wrong. Also, http://enveurope.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/2190-4715... says that tax incentives for dieselisation in the domestic German market are relatively modest (and that there was a small tax penalty for buying a diesel until 2009, though not after actual fuel costs were taken into account) (2.3.6, 2.3.7). Interestingly, it also suggests that a supply glut of fuel oil (which can be converted into diesel) was the original incentive for the European diesel boom (2.3.1) . Then again, further on down the road it seems clear that the EU's lenient approach to diesel emissions had the effect of advantaging European automakers collectively against competition from the Japanese, who had bet on hybrids instead (2.3.6).

In summary, TIL.

Re: Nearly all new diesel cars exceed official pollution limits

#104
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not required by law to be amorral profit machines. Directors have to take into consideration company image and general well being in making decisions. They don't have to take into consideration profit.

They are not required by law per se, but this is what evolutionary pressures (i.e. competition) demand of them. We won't have companies acting morally until we start expecting it from them - seriously enough that it starts to affect the profit calculation.

This is a well-worn sentiment, but I think it is at best only partially true. A substantial aspect to the way modern businesses run has little to do with sheer, naked profit seeking and much to do with culture. Specifically a culture of class distinctions, power, and "winning". There are countless instances of corporations doing dumb things that hurt their bottom line but are done anyway because it aligns with the culture and values system of those making the decisions.

Re: Nearly all new diesel cars exceed official pollution limits

#105
I don't get the math about diesel. American refineries produce 12 gallons of diesel and 19 gallons of gasoline on average[1] from a barrel of oil(42 gallons). I seem to remember that figure being lower and it looks like googles answer was 10 gallons at one point using the same site reference. I think that there was a push to get most cars off of gasoline and on to diesel before the VW scandal, and that diesel was going to save the world. I didn't see how we were going to make that work when there is 50-80% less of the stuff per barrel of oil. I think in the real world the MPG gains are 25-35%[2]

I don't know that EVs are the savior they're pitched as, unless we can make battery tech and power generation cleaner. It looks like there is progress in that arena, so hopefully that continues. I think that we have demonstrably cleaned up gasoline cars while also increasing power output and MPG, and progress in that arena should continue as well. I think that diesel for passenger cars is a dead end, and it should be left to big rigs and heavy duty vehicles.

[1] http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=327&t=9 [2]https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/di_diesels.shtml

Re: Nearly all new diesel cars exceed official pollution limits

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See my reply above, I'm inclined to believe that storing enough DEF for correct dosing through a 10,000 mile service interval may not be feasible for a small car. After hearing about this regulation it seems an obvious reason why they would keep the cheat enabled even after adding a DEF system.

> I'm inclined to believe that storing enough DEF for correct dosing through a 10,000 mile service interval may not be feasible for a small car. It is feasible and they already do it.

Do you mean VW? All the speculation I've read is that the DEF cars are also being recalled because they don't use the correct dosing.

Or do you mean the Chevy Cruze? They must have some strategy that works (so far).

Re: Nearly all new diesel cars exceed official pollution limits

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because American companies don't make diesel cars. Aside from trucks, that is. I tend to keep up on cars, and I can't name any American-brand, small diesel off the top of my head from the last 30+ years, aside from last year's Chevy Cruze. Edit/clarification: I'm speaking strictly of the American market. If American companies make small diesel cars for international markets, it's not at all relevant to discussing sma…

Ford makes them though, but only in Europe, and they are not particularly strong in diesel at that. Both Focus and Mondeo are available as diesels. And even Fiasco...sorry, Fiesta. GM don't sell Opels in the US, although they could re-badge them as Chevrolets.

> Ford makes them though, but only in Europe, and they are not particularly strong in diesel at that

I disagree, certainly from a UK perspective.

Most modern Ford diesel engines are the product of the collaboration between Ford, Citreon and Peugeot [0][1].

Ford diesel Focus and Mondeo's are hugely popular and are quite reliable, reasonably sporty and fuel efficient things. My dad's last three Fords (Focus, Mondeo then Focus) were all diesels and he loved them. Virtually everyone I know that own's a Focus has one of the diesel versions.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_DLD_engine

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_AJD-V6/PSA_DT17

Re: Nearly all new diesel cars exceed official pollution limits

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm inclined to believe that storing enough DEF for correct dosing through a 10,000 mile service interval may not be feasible for a small car. It is feasible and they already do it.

Do you mean VW? All the speculation I've read is that the DEF cars are also being recalled because they don't use the correct dosing. Or do you mean the Chevy Cruze? They must have some strategy that works (so far).

What they are going to do during the recall is different for the various generations of cars.

Some of the VWs are getting bigger DEF tanks. For the cars that this isn't an option, I don't think VW has said exactly what they are going to do. They could just disable the cheating mode on the software. Fuel economy and performance would suck, but the emissions would be at acceptable levels.

Re: Nearly all new diesel cars exceed official pollution limits

#109
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The manufactures were required to "pass" the tests. They did. The tests were not fit for purpose. Fix the tests or GIVE UP. You will NEVER get the manufactures to act as moral entities -- they are amoral. They are profit machines and are required by law to be that way. The comparison to aircraft manufacturing only works if you are arguing aircraft manufactures and industry bodies design and implement similarly stupid…

I don't disagree with your opinion on the tests. If the tests aren't fit for purpose, they must be replaced or removed. However, the tests as-is do serve one purpose: to provide an absolute comparison between different models across different years. However, regarding corporations: You will NEVER get the manufactures to act as moral entities -- they are amoral This attitude is part of what keeps them immoral. They ar…

You wrote "immoral", but the parent wrote "amoral". There is a difference!

...or was that intentional?

Re: Nearly all new diesel cars exceed official pollution limits

#110

Every gasoline car is going to put out more pollution in "real world" driving scenarios as well. This isn't a problem with diesels, per se, it's a problem with all emissions standards.

Its supposed to be 'built-in' to the emissions standard. The lab levels are so low, because that makes the road emissions in an acceptable range. Everybody involved knows this; its not a secret; there's no news here.

Yes, I was trying to figure out an eloquent way to add something to that effect to my comment, but I think you've done a better job than what I had drafted anyway.

What would be interesting, is if diesels were predominantly more likely to exceed those lab levels than gasoline cars to a significant amount, or if they were exceeding those standards to an unexpected level.

That's still possible, and it would mean we need to update the emissions standards and/or the test process, but this article doesn't make that case.

Post reply on HN