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Apple admits use of child labour in China

telegraph.co.uk

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Re: Apple admits use of child labour in China

#41

Post by yequalsx »

xenophanes wrote: post #37
yequalsx wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah...the old imperial justification. Apple doesn't directly hire the children to work in the shops so their moral obligation ends there. I'll bet those kids even earn more than would have made if Apple hadn't contracted out to the factory. I wonder if your working conditions were the same as the Chinese kids' working conditions. Hmmm...I wonder if you would be willing to work under the same conditions as these kids w…

Why do you think the kids work there? Is it voluntary or involuntary? Suppose it's voluntary. If so, then if you stop them from having that job, they will believe you've hurt them, by taking away their preferred life option. Correct?

The same arguments were made when we decided that children shouldn't mine coal. The argument is wrong.

Re: Apple admits use of child labour in China

#42

Post by yequalsx »

derefr wrote: post #31
yequalsx wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar things were said in the U.S. when we outlawed most forms of factory work for children. Our society became better when we did outlaw this. How about this form of outsourcing? Rather than Apple owning and managing the factory in question they contract it out so they can assuage their guilt when children end up working there.

> Our society became better when we did outlaw this. Cite for this, please. As far as I know, we outlawed child factory labor purely because children, with their small bodies that could fit into more-easily-constructed mineshafts, dexterous hands that could assemble small parts, and lesser demand for pay, were being preferred for most jobs, and so adult workers basically had a union action against them to make sure t…

Is this a serious request? You want me to cite the basis for me stating that our society became better by outlawing the employment of children in factories and mines? This isn't obvious to you? I am grateful that people with your point of view didn't prevail when the United States confronted this issue.

Re: Apple admits use of child labour in China

#43

Post by yequalsx »

jrockway wrote: post #13

At least they don't let iPhone apps show boobs. They wouldn't want to "sully" their image.

I don't know why you are getting down voted. It's says much about society that you are. People on this site get outraged about App Store policies but not about child labor and Apple's ability to wash it's hands because the labor was contracted through a third party and they periodically do audits. God forbid Apple actually own the factory that makes their products and ensures that no children ever work there.

Re: Apple admits use of child labour in China

#44

Post by bravura »

jballanc wrote: post #36

Please, if you are in favor of child labour and worker exploitation, the best thing you could do is express your outrage at Apple for independently auditing, investigating, and punishing their suppliers for these practices. I think all American companies should know that, if they take it upon themselves to reveal what is already happening in China in an attempt to right the wrong , they will be rewarded with sensatio…

How completely repulsive is child labor? Is that worse, or it is worse to deny being the father of your child, and being a deadbeat dad who forces your baby's momma to support your child using welfare?

"Jobs also has a daughter, Lisa Brennan-Jobs (born 1978), from his relationship with Bay Area painter Chrisann Brennan. She briefly raised their daughter on welfare when Jobs denied paternity, claiming that he was sterile; he later acknowledged paternity."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jobs#Personal_life

Re: Apple admits use of child labour in China

#45

Post by Enra2 »

yequalsx wrote: post #42
derefr wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Our society became better when we did outlaw this. Cite for this, please. As far as I know, we outlawed child factory labor purely because children, with their small bodies that could fit into more-easily-constructed mineshafts, dexterous hands that could assemble small parts, and lesser demand for pay, were being preferred for most jobs, and so adult workers basically had a union action against them to make sure t…

Is this a serious request? You want me to cite the basis for me stating that our society became better by outlawing the employment of children in factories and mines? This isn't obvious to you? I am grateful that people with your point of view didn't prevail when the United States confronted this issue.

The US and the rest of the west experienced unprecedented per capita BNP growth since around the time western countries banned child labour. This is the reason for increased living standards. It would not have mattered much in the long run who prevailed because rich (by the standards of 1850 we pretty much all are) parents don't let their children work full time in factories.

Re: Apple admits use of child labour in China

#46

Post by GHFigs »

derefr wrote: post #31
yequalsx wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar things were said in the U.S. when we outlawed most forms of factory work for children. Our society became better when we did outlaw this. How about this form of outsourcing? Rather than Apple owning and managing the factory in question they contract it out so they can assuage their guilt when children end up working there.

> Our society became better when we did outlaw this. Cite for this, please. As far as I know, we outlawed child factory labor purely because children, with their small bodies that could fit into more-easily-constructed mineshafts, dexterous hands that could assemble small parts, and lesser demand for pay, were being preferred for most jobs, and so adult workers basically had a union action against them to make sure t…

adult workers basically had a union action against them to make sure their own jobs were safe

Cite for this? Or a source on the topic in general?

I don't mean to sound incredulous, it's just that you seem to be familiar with the subject.

Re: Apple admits use of child labour in China

#47

Post by philwelch »

yequalsx wrote: post #40
philwelch wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I wonder if you would be willing to work under the same conditions as these kids work in." That rather depends upon what the possible alternatives are, doesn't it? The average middle-class, privileged westerner wouldn't, but the average middle-class, privileged westerner has much better options--and for that matter, turns his nose up at the idea of living without cable TV or a microwave oven. If there's a way up to…

I'm from the Canal Zone. I grew up there. I'm a former American colonist. The bulk of the workforce was Panamanian. Their wages were much lower than American wages. The justification by we Americans was that they were paid better by the Company than they would get in Panama. It's the standard imperial justification and it's wrong. Panama has done quite well without America and their wages have improved. This isn't un…

Who said anything about forced labor?

If the choice is between paying someone in another country the same amount you'd pay someone at home and not hiring them at all, the simple fact is, they're not going to be hired at all. The unspoken assumption, of course, is that we can let the whole rest of the world languish in poverty so long as we're sure that every appliance in our electrified houses and every damned faucet for our hot and cold running water was made by American hands in an American factory. That's even a consistent worldview--but you have to acknowledge what you have to give up in order to maintain that consistency. If we have to consistently choose not to interfere with cultures less technologically and economically advanced as our own, that means no interference. That's a hard pill for most people to swallow. What's more imperialistic--contracting with a Chinese company for manufacturing or "rebuilding Haiti" (in our own image, of course).

Re: Apple admits use of child labour in China

#48

Post by philwelch »

bravura wrote: post #44
jballanc wrote: post #36

Please, if you are in favor of child labour and worker exploitation, the best thing you could do is express your outrage at Apple for independently auditing, investigating, and punishing their suppliers for these practices. I think all American companies should know that, if they take it upon themselves to reveal what is already happening in China in an attempt to right the wrong , they will be rewarded with sensatio…

How completely repulsive is child labor? Is that worse, or it is worse to deny being the father of your child, and being a deadbeat dad who forces your baby's momma to support your child using welfare? "Jobs also has a daughter, Lisa Brennan-Jobs (born 1978), from his relationship with Bay Area painter Chrisann Brennan. She briefly raised their daughter on welfare when Jobs denied paternity, claiming that he was ster…

I don't think anyone considers Jobs a morally exemplary person for that, but there's no point bringing it up in a totally unrelated discussion.

Re: Apple admits use of child labour in China

#49

Post by philwelch »

yequalsx wrote: post #18
alexandros wrote: post #3

I understand the general sentiment against child labour, but somehow a 15-year old doesn't seem incapable of working at a factory. Child and teenager are diferent words, except when they're not. People have been working the fields from small ages throughout history. As long as the child didn't drop school or something else to go there, maybe getting a job was the best idea. Having a hard age limit just seems arbitrar…

Similar things were said in the U.S. when we outlawed most forms of factory work for children. Our society became better when we did outlaw this. How about this form of outsourcing? Rather than Apple owning and managing the factory in question they contract it out so they can assuage their guilt when children end up working there.

The US passed laws against child labor when it did because it could afford to, ultimately. You don't find too many poor societies which spontaneously decide to build schools for everyone below the age of 18 and prohibit them from working. You might find a few where some foreign imperialists decided to build schools and send all of the country's youths to it, but I assume you're against that sort of thing.

Notably, the US also decided for themselves when to pass such laws--they didn't have the matter dictated to them by the countries they exported goods to.

Re: Apple admits use of child labour in China

#50

Post by Dove »

philwelch wrote: post #32
yequalsx wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah...the old imperial justification. Apple doesn't directly hire the children to work in the shops so their moral obligation ends there. I'll bet those kids even earn more than would have made if Apple hadn't contracted out to the factory. I wonder if your working conditions were the same as the Chinese kids' working conditions. Hmmm...I wonder if you would be willing to work under the same conditions as these kids w…

"I wonder if you would be willing to work under the same conditions as these kids work in." That rather depends upon what the possible alternatives are, doesn't it? The average middle-class, privileged westerner wouldn't, but the average middle-class, privileged westerner has much better options--and for that matter, turns his nose up at the idea of living without cable TV or a microwave oven. If there's a way up to…

Indeed. In the west, we have high safety and comfort standards, and expect children to spend their time learning and playing. These are luxuries, and not everyone can afford them. In places that cannot afford them, the alternative to sweatshops and child labor is not nicer work environments or idyllic playtime. It is crime, prostitution, or starvation.

I'm not exaggerating. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119125,00.html

Alien as it may seem to our culture of riches and comfort, there are places where these jobs are a significant blessing. Slavery is evil, and should never be supported by the west. But taking a job from a willing worker (or even a child), in a poor country is NOT helping him.

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