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The Chaos and the Craftsmanship of Shenzhen

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Re: The Chaos and the Craftsmanship of Shenzhen

#31

Post by seanmcdirmid »

matthewrudy wrote: post #24
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think all the western cloud providers work like this; e.g. Azure in China. It isn't really that they can't get a license, but getting a license requires a certain amount of exposure to Chinese law that many western companies can't take on.

I guess that's true. But it wasn't something we'd considered properly. Gives us more of a reason to move to a Chinese provider for our CN servers. (This is now simpler as we're standardizing on Kubernetes for deployments, so Kubernetes on AWS.cn vs Kubernetes on Aliyun should be equivalent)

The idea is that the technology is constant at least. Also, tech support often goes along with it.

Re: The Chaos and the Craftsmanship of Shenzhen

#32

Post by seanmcdirmid »

makomk wrote: post #25
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've lived in Beijing for the last 8.5 years working in tech. We all thought the last decade was when everything was going to happen, and most of us were disappointed when it didn't. Granted, when I first moved here, the pollution wasn't as bad, the censorship wasn't as bad, but things changed. Perhaps China might start on an upward opening up trajectory again, but it has been closing up since 2008 (great if you want…

It's incredible how closed off they seem to be in general and how little mention it gets in most press coverage of the supposed Chinese miracle. For example, Ian from Dangerous Prototypes wrote a blog post about how difficult it is to import and export goods: http://dangerousprototypes.com/2016/02/04/how-to-china-impor... It's astoundingly bureaucratic and expensive.

Right. There is a perception that western media is biased on China, that they make china look worse than it is. But the opposite is actually true: China is much crazier and restrictive than what the western press presents (my guess is that no one would believe the reality).

Re: The Chaos and the Craftsmanship of Shenzhen

#33

Post by erikb »

rurban wrote: post #29
erikb wrote: post #21

I have been in China this and last February and feel this article represents the development well. One of the bug strenghts of the US of the last 20 years was the internet dominance. But the western world struggles to get the mobile internet to a point where it should be. On the other hand China's internet grew up with mobile phones. Many people have never owned a desktop computer, maybe only know it from internet ca…

Yes, but the privacy bit is wrong. Chinese as all asians are very concerned about privacy and government spies patrolling and censoring their free internet space. There are a lot of invite-only app spaces, and you trust the one you see, but not a random internet guy. It's less about politics, more about government track down of "porn" (=prostitution) and corruption.

Sorry, I don't understand it yet. In China most people use QQ and Wechat. Nobody even thinks about that the government is reading their messages as well. It's not a discussion point, neither behind closed doors nor in the open.

"you trust the one you see, but not a random internet guy" the one I see where? What invite-only spaces you know? Afaik everybody uses Wechat and other chat apps are mostly disregarded.

Re: The Chaos and the Craftsmanship of Shenzhen

#35

Post by pilom »

sgt101 wrote: post #26
rebootthesystem wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> everything someone creates is always built upon the knowledge of others Right. Sure. These are the kinds of beliefs often verbalized by people who never risked their own time and money to solve hard problems and had to face the risk and reality of the Chinese (or others) stealing the results of that effort. Here's the difference, the "R" in "R&D" is the most expensive part. The "D" is cheap. By stealing they get th…

I think R cost is low, creating a poc is about 100th of the cost of a product (a proper product) but the risk of R is huge and therefore it's very hard to sustain and justify.

While that is often true in software it is very seldom true in hardware. Think hard drives. The first HDD with HAMR (using lasers to heat up the platter to make it easier to isolate and flip a bit) required many millions of dollars to figure out how to do it. And when they started, no one knew if it was possible. Once they knew it was possible, creating a factory to build them was simple.

Re: The Chaos and the Craftsmanship of Shenzhen

#36

Post by Kristine1975 »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #14
Hondor wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No country has free speech. But in choosing a country, you can choose which types of speech you want to be allowed to make freely and which types you want to be protected from other people making. America gets its free speech by defining the word to mean any communication that's permitted to be free. If the law disallows something then by definition it's not speech anymore, or it's an exception that's so obvious nobo…

That's pretty cynical. Its disingenuous to suggest 'free speech' ever meant free to lie and hurt other people. The freedom is intended to mean 'free to criticize the government', as that was called sedition in past ages.

>he freedom is intended to mean 'free to criticize the government', as that was called sedition in past ages.

And then the US has these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zone

Also sedition seems to still be illegal in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedition#United_States

Re: The Chaos and the Craftsmanship of Shenzhen

#37

Post by Hondor »

bruceb wrote: post #15
Hondor wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No country has free speech. But in choosing a country, you can choose which types of speech you want to be allowed to make freely and which types you want to be protected from other people making. America gets its free speech by defining the word to mean any communication that's permitted to be free. If the law disallows something then by definition it's not speech anymore, or it's an exception that's so obvious nobo…

flag burning isn't illegal. Most of what you listed is not allowed most countries + more restrictions. Compared to most other countries America has fewest restrictions.

That's good news for freedom. It seems flag burning was illegal before 1990, and very nearly became illegal again a couple of years ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_Protection_Act

It's true most other countries have even less freedom of speech, but my point was that it's not black and white. Each country is different and none are very free at all. It should be called "fairly free political speech as long as you aren't too specific in calling for overthrow of the government" or a briefer form of that.

Re: The Chaos and the Craftsmanship of Shenzhen

#38

Post by Hondor »

godbov wrote: post #28
Hondor wrote: post #10

A bit tangential, but something fantastic it mentions is electronic payment. In China it's already like living in the future. Most shops accept WeChat or Alipay. Everything from chain supermarkets down to the old lady selling vegetables on the side of the road. They've really penetrated the market from top to bottom. If you find a shop that does require cash, you can stop a stranger in the street and trade cash for W…

Do you know what their government's position on these currencies is?

They're completely above board. It's still the RMB currency just using and app to pass it around between people's app accounts and bank accounts. Bitcoin on the other hand is restricted I believe, so is exchanging RMB for foreign currencies.

Re: The Chaos and the Craftsmanship of Shenzhen

#39

Post by sgt101 »

pilom wrote: post #35
sgt101 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think R cost is low, creating a poc is about 100th of the cost of a product (a proper product) but the risk of R is huge and therefore it's very hard to sustain and justify.

While that is often true in software it is very seldom true in hardware. Think hard drives. The first HDD with HAMR (using lasers to heat up the platter to make it easier to isolate and flip a bit) required many millions of dollars to figure out how to do it. And when they started, no one knew if it was possible. Once they knew it was possible, creating a factory to build them was simple.

Building a fab costs ~$8bn now, does Intel spend that in research? They report (like everyone) R&D, but I bet the majority is D. Delivering a product is very different from making a component (like a platter) - the safety testing, reliability engineering and all the other elements of development are expensive and labour intensive.

Re: The Chaos and the Craftsmanship of Shenzhen

#40

Post by rebootthesystem »

sgt101 wrote: post #39
pilom wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While that is often true in software it is very seldom true in hardware. Think hard drives. The first HDD with HAMR (using lasers to heat up the platter to make it easier to isolate and flip a bit) required many millions of dollars to figure out how to do it. And when they started, no one knew if it was possible. Once they knew it was possible, creating a factory to build them was simple.

Building a fab costs ~$8bn now, does Intel spend that in research ? They report (like everyone) R&D, but I bet the majority is D. Delivering a product is very different from making a component (like a platter) - the safety testing, reliability engineering and all the other elements of development are expensive and labour intensive.

You are missing the point.

You are thinking "expensive" is equal to "more money". Expensive, in this context, means far more than money. For example, risk. Sometimes company-ending risk.

I said "R" is expensive because it is often packaged with uncertainty. You have no idea if something is going to work or if people will even be receptive to the product.

Take SpaceX's landing rockets as an example. Hard and very expensive research. Lots of details nobody will ever know about. Lots of failures before success. And then, even with success, you have to make it repeatable and reliable.

One the "R" is done, "D" or building and scaling is, in relative terms, cheap.

Sure, it can cost billions to tilt-up a factory to build hard drives. Yet, you have a product and you have a market. You have an opportunity. You didn't have any of that before.

Wright Brothers: Hard and expensive R&D requiring YEARS of dedication. Once everyone knew you could build such planes (and how to do it) the "D" was cheap because it was done.

Sikorsky and helicopters is another AMAZING example of that. Helicopters got launched because of the Sikorsky's hard work and the unbelievable involvement of none other than Sergei Rachmaninoff (as in the pianist and composer) taking a leap and investing in the "R" that allowed Sikorsky to complete his work [0].

"R" is very expensive, in more than financial terms, that's why the Chinese copy rather than innovate.

That we are allowing them to get away with it is, well, disturbing.

[0] http://www.sikorskyarchives.com/Igor_Sikorsky_&_Sergei_Rachm...

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