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The Chaos and the Craftsmanship of Shenzhen

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Re: The Chaos and the Craftsmanship of Shenzhen

#11

Post by seanmcdirmid »

studentrob wrote: post #5

> The next decade is going to be all about the relationship between China and the United States in technology, I want to be there to see it happen. So does the author plan to move to Shenzhen, one of the world's most densely populated and polluted cities, in a country that doesn't have free speech? I agree SZ has the best tech scene in China, perhaps due to its proximity to the freer Hong Kong, which has always been…

I've lived in Beijing for the last 8.5 years working in tech. We all thought the last decade was when everything was going to happen, and most of us were disappointed when it didn't. Granted, when I first moved here, the pollution wasn't as bad, the censorship wasn't as bad, but things changed. Perhaps China might start on an upward opening up trajectory again, but it has been closing up since 2008 (great if you want to be sheltered from foreign competition, bad if you want to practice your world game in an open market).

Re: The Chaos and the Craftsmanship of Shenzhen

#12

Post by Hondor »

studentrob wrote: post #5

> The next decade is going to be all about the relationship between China and the United States in technology, I want to be there to see it happen. So does the author plan to move to Shenzhen, one of the world's most densely populated and polluted cities, in a country that doesn't have free speech? I agree SZ has the best tech scene in China, perhaps due to its proximity to the freer Hong Kong, which has always been…

No country has free speech. But in choosing a country, you can choose which types of speech you want to be allowed to make freely and which types you want to be protected from other people making.

America gets its free speech by defining the word to mean any communication that's permitted to be free. If the law disallows something then by definition it's not speech anymore, or it's an exception that's so obvious nobody mentions it. Examples: Flag burning, copyright infringement, libel, slander, threats, incitement to violence, child pornography, false advertising, revealing state secrets and trade secrets, violating NDAs, sharing insider information about listed companies. Wow, there's quite a lot of things you're not allowed to say in America!

It's a bit like Athenian democracy where everyone could vote. Of course women, children, slaves and foreigners obviously weren't part of "everyone" so there's no need to mention them.

Re: The Chaos and the Craftsmanship of Shenzhen

#13

Post by userbinator »

jbpadgett wrote: post #3

"The innovation process always starts with copying and in Shenzhen they are copying systematically at a scale you can scarcely imagine. A student who copies Van Gogh relentlessly may not initially understand how Van Gogh undertook original works of art. After enough copying, that same student may grasp the underlying theories and extend them into new areas." - China is often criticized for the copying as violating IP…

Here's a great article that explains how IP in China works --- it's definitely more sharing-centric than the West: http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=4297

If it could be summed up in one sentence, it would be "Everything is a derivative work." Instead of trying to claim complete exclusivity, they implicitly realise that everything someone creates is always built upon the knowledge of others.

Re: The Chaos and the Craftsmanship of Shenzhen

#14

Post by JoeAltmaier »

Hondor wrote: post #12
studentrob wrote: post #5

> The next decade is going to be all about the relationship between China and the United States in technology, I want to be there to see it happen. So does the author plan to move to Shenzhen, one of the world's most densely populated and polluted cities, in a country that doesn't have free speech? I agree SZ has the best tech scene in China, perhaps due to its proximity to the freer Hong Kong, which has always been…

No country has free speech. But in choosing a country, you can choose which types of speech you want to be allowed to make freely and which types you want to be protected from other people making. America gets its free speech by defining the word to mean any communication that's permitted to be free. If the law disallows something then by definition it's not speech anymore, or it's an exception that's so obvious nobo…

That's pretty cynical. Its disingenuous to suggest 'free speech' ever meant free to lie and hurt other people. The freedom is intended to mean 'free to criticize the government', as that was called sedition in past ages.

Re: The Chaos and the Craftsmanship of Shenzhen

#15

Post by bruceb »

Hondor wrote: post #12
studentrob wrote: post #5

> The next decade is going to be all about the relationship between China and the United States in technology, I want to be there to see it happen. So does the author plan to move to Shenzhen, one of the world's most densely populated and polluted cities, in a country that doesn't have free speech? I agree SZ has the best tech scene in China, perhaps due to its proximity to the freer Hong Kong, which has always been…

No country has free speech. But in choosing a country, you can choose which types of speech you want to be allowed to make freely and which types you want to be protected from other people making. America gets its free speech by defining the word to mean any communication that's permitted to be free. If the law disallows something then by definition it's not speech anymore, or it's an exception that's so obvious nobo…

flag burning isn't illegal.

Most of what you listed is not allowed most countries + more restrictions. Compared to most other countries America has fewest restrictions.

Re: The Chaos and the Craftsmanship of Shenzhen

#16

Post by xkiwi »

Hondor wrote: post #10

A bit tangential, but something fantastic it mentions is electronic payment. In China it's already like living in the future. Most shops accept WeChat or Alipay. Everything from chain supermarkets down to the old lady selling vegetables on the side of the road. They've really penetrated the market from top to bottom. If you find a shop that does require cash, you can stop a stranger in the street and trade cash for W…

For a moment I have to check your username to make sure this is not my reply.

I am surprised how anyone can pay with discount in an APP call "dianping". For a two week trip in china, I found out even Taxi driver will accept my Wechat payment and they don't even know english.

Re: The Chaos and the Craftsmanship of Shenzhen

#17

Post by culturestate »

netheril96 wrote: post #6
studentrob wrote: post #5

> The next decade is going to be all about the relationship between China and the United States in technology, I want to be there to see it happen. So does the author plan to move to Shenzhen, one of the world's most densely populated and polluted cities, in a country that doesn't have free speech? I agree SZ has the best tech scene in China, perhaps due to its proximity to the freer Hong Kong, which has always been…

> one of the world's most densely populated and polluted cities Shenzhen is most polluted?

It's the least-polluted of any first-tier Chinese city, but it's still bad by western standards. When I lived there, I would gauge the day's pollution level by how difficult it was to see the mountains from my balcony through the smog.

Re: The Chaos and the Craftsmanship of Shenzhen

#18

Post by rebootthesystem »

userbinator wrote: post #13
jbpadgett wrote: post #3

"The innovation process always starts with copying and in Shenzhen they are copying systematically at a scale you can scarcely imagine. A student who copies Van Gogh relentlessly may not initially understand how Van Gogh undertook original works of art. After enough copying, that same student may grasp the underlying theories and extend them into new areas." - China is often criticized for the copying as violating IP…

Here's a great article that explains how IP in China works --- it's definitely more sharing-centric than the West: http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=4297 If it could be summed up in one sentence, it would be "Everything is a derivative work." Instead of trying to claim complete exclusivity, they implicitly realise that everything someone creates is always built upon the knowledge of others.

> everything someone creates is always built upon the knowledge of others

Right. Sure. These are the kinds of beliefs often verbalized by people who never risked their own time and money to solve hard problems and had to face the risk and reality of the Chinese (or others) stealing the results of that effort.

Here's the difference, the "R" in "R&D" is the most expensive part. The "D" is cheap. By stealing they get the "R" for free and can afford devastating predatory techniques to own the market.

We devoted ten years and millions of dollars to solving a very hard problem. I decided we would keep all of it a trade secret.

Why?

Because, that was the only way to make "D" very expensive. Stealing something when the cost is just as high as having to develop it often scares away a lot of thieves.

It's one thing if you are developing a new set of headphones that don't really have much in the way of technical innovation. It's quite another thing when you are solving a hard problem (which can be risky, very expensive and require a long and constant effort).

Re: The Chaos and the Craftsmanship of Shenzhen

#19

Post by matthewrudy »

desdiv wrote: post #8
studentrob wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's a lot to be said about improving quality of Chinese hardware and software, but it's definitely not up to western quality levels yet. Anecdotally, last year I worked for an Asian company which had an office in Shenzhen. They were not able to compete with western tech, in part because they didn't understand the benefits of cloud computing. They wanted to own all their own hardware and it really slowed down so…

Cloud computing in China is a total shit show: 1. Go with a foreign cloud provider which has horrible latency thanks to the Great Firewall, and could get permanently blocked any time at the whims of the government. 2. Go with one of the big Chinese tech companies (Baidu, Alibaba and Tencent), where it's almost guaranteed that they will steal your idea/code/data, clone your product, and rely on their massive size and…

We use AWS.cn for our service. But found out last week that AWS doesn't actually have a license, and piggybacks on some third party provider in beijing.

http://m.baidu.com/news?tn=bdbjbody&bjaid=392506&bjdomain=la...

Re: The Chaos and the Craftsmanship of Shenzhen

#20

Post by seanmcdirmid »

matthewrudy wrote: post #19
desdiv wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cloud computing in China is a total shit show: 1. Go with a foreign cloud provider which has horrible latency thanks to the Great Firewall, and could get permanently blocked any time at the whims of the government. 2. Go with one of the big Chinese tech companies (Baidu, Alibaba and Tencent), where it's almost guaranteed that they will steal your idea/code/data, clone your product, and rely on their massive size and…

We use AWS.cn for our service. But found out last week that AWS doesn't actually have a license, and piggybacks on some third party provider in beijing. http://m.baidu.com/news?tn=bdbjbody&bjaid=392506&bjdomain=la...

I think all the western cloud providers work like this; e.g. Azure in China. It isn't really that they can't get a license, but getting a license requires a certain amount of exposure to Chinese law that many western companies can't take on.
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