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Not All Practice Makes Perfect

nautil.us

31–40 of 62 posts

Re: Not All Practice Makes Perfect

#31
post #23
post #21

> The approach that he took, which we will call "purposeful practice," turned out to be incredibly successful for him. It isn't always so successful, as we shall see, but it is more effective than the usual just-enough method — and it is a step toward deliberate practice, which is our ultimate goal. The article then concludes with a description of purposeful practice. Where is the promised description of deliberate p…

I too was left disappointed and wondering the same thing when I came to the end of an otherwise great article. My best guess is that anyone can do purposeful practicing simply by changing things up and staying out of one's "comfort zone", whereas deliberate practice is more or less the same thing, with the difference being that you have an experienced mentor guiding you through the process in a more structured manner…

In other articles I've read about deliberate practice, the other elements include:

1. Maintaining a difficulty level that is just barely out of your comfort zone: not so hard that you flail wildly, but not so easy that it's trivial. This is touched upon in the article, but presumably "deliberate" practice also deliberately adjusts the difficulty level in response to performance.

2. Mindfulness while you're practicing. The description of "purposeful" practice in the article mentions seeking out errors and correcting them after the fact. The descriptions of "deliberate" practice I've heard mentioned paying careful attention to your performance while you're practicing, so you can instantly correct or rehearse trouble spots. (And this requires a corresponding attention to the difficulty level so that you can spare this attention to avoiding & fixing mistakes.)

Re: Not All Practice Makes Perfect

#32
For those who might have missed it, one of the authors (Ericsson) is the same person who originally came up with the "expertise requires 10,000 hours of practice" idea that Malcolm Gladwell later popularized. Unfortunately, Gladwell mangled it as badly as he mangles everything else. As I had to point out on another story here recently, Ericsson was talking about 10,000 hours of highly focused and disciplined practice, carefully analyzing and correcting errors etc. Thanks largely to Gladwell, many people have dumbed that down to 10,000 hours of any old thing, and it's no wonder that they find the idea highly questionable. The original makes much more sense.

Re: Not All Practice Makes Perfect

#34
post #28
post #17

Really interesting. I wonder how you could use a similar technique to improve your code? Things like code reviews would give you the necessary feedback, but I can't think of a rigorous way to make sure you'd always be on the limit of what you're capable of, pushing a little further with each project.

Most of the challenge in writing code is in understanding the problem you're trying to solve. Not the act of entering statements into editors. Yes it's important to know the capabilites of your language and deployment stack -- but that just requires study, which in my mind is different from practice. I've never found that coding well required the sort of intense dedication that learning to play an instrument well, or…

> Yes it's important to know the capabilites of your language and deployment stack -- but that just requires study, which in my mind is different from practice.

I agree. Which is maybe why Stackoverflow solves so many problems for a developer. You know what you want to do, you know how you want to do it. But you're stuck because you can't make sense of an API or don't know where to look for the functions you need.

Re: Not All Practice Makes Perfect

#35
post #17

Really interesting. I wonder how you could use a similar technique to improve your code? Things like code reviews would give you the necessary feedback, but I can't think of a rigorous way to make sure you'd always be on the limit of what you're capable of, pushing a little further with each project.

I wondered the same thing. I was a classically trained musician and learned to implement some of these techniques in practice sessions. They're really effective.

But how could we use "deliberate practice" to improve coding? If we assume coding to stand for solving problems with code, then it seems we'd need to deliberately practice problem solving.

It's possible to measure problem solving skills, and push those skills outside of a comfort zone. But it's not as straightforward as measurement, "I'll play this passage without mistakes 3 times in a row", or "I'll place this golf ball on the fairway 5 times" and adjusting performance based on feedback.

Re: Not All Practice Makes Perfect

#36
post #8

Something I've noticed, which the article doesn't quite say (but sure hints at): you can accidentally teach yourself performance-degrading "techniques" if you keep practicing beyond a certain point. I used to study (modern) drums 5+ hours a day. This would happen sometimes, around the time when I was learning a new technique: I'd start on the new material, practice it for a while, then I'd get it to a so-so point and…

I think it is a common mistake by people starting to learn for example an instrument. You play the new piece, often a bit too fast, and make a mistake. Then just repeat in the same way, making exactly the same mistake over and over again. The hope is that if you play it enough times and put in enough effort you will cease making the mistake. That is of course wrong. Instead you learn the mistake really really well. W…

Something else that really helps is backchaining.

Split the thing you are learning into chunks... making each chunk as small/simple/easy as you can.

Learn the chunks in reverse order. Starting with chunk N, then N-1, all the way to chunk 1. This way, you always start with the hardest part and then move onto the easier (more practiced) parts.

This keeps the focus on the part you are trying to learn, and reduces learning stress.

Re: Not All Practice Makes Perfect

#37
Wasn't there an article on motor skill recently, how practising variations of a motion (or two different motions) can be wildly more effective than simply focusing on one single movement? I can't seem to find a hn posting, but this one is along the lines of what I'm thinking of:

"The Fastest Way To Learn" http://www.jonahlehrer.com/blog/2016/2/15/the-fastest-way-to...

While looking, I also came across:

"Why Slow Movement Builds Coordination": http://www.bettermovement.org/blog/2010/why-practice-slow-mo...

"There are several excellent reasons to use slow and gentle movement as a means to develop coordination. Probably the most interesting reason (I'll start with that one) is based on an obscure principle called the Weber Fechner rule. The Weber Fechner rule describes the relationship between the magnitude of a particular stimulus and the brain's ability to sense differences in the amount of the stimulus. The basic rule is that as you increase the stimulus, the ability to tell a difference in the amount of the stimulus decreases. This is a very common sense idea. Imagine you are in a dark room with only one candle lit. It will be very easy to sense the difference when one additional candle is lit. But if you are in a room with two hundred candles, you will have no idea when an extra candle comes on.

This rule works for all varieties of sensory perception, including sensations of muscular effort. So, imagine you are holding a one pound potato in your hand while blindfolded. If a fly landed on the weight you would not know the difference, but if a little bird landed you would know. Now imagine holding a fifty pound potato. You wouldn't be able to feel the little bird landing. It would have to be an eagle. The point is that when you increase the weight from one pound to fifty pounds, you become about fifty times less sensitive to changes in the amount of muscular force you are using to lift the weight."

I'm not sure how much it is possible to generalize from pure mental practice like memorizing numbers to physical practice like playing the piano (like this article does, without much substance beyond hand-waving about "brains will be brains", so to speak).

But as mentioned in the comments here, and touched on in the article, it is probably true that it is important to be able to understand your own ability and progress (what you do right, what you get wrong), to continue to challenge one selves (making no mistakes makes for bad practice, but making the same mistakes over and over also makes for bad practice).

I think that for complex skills, one of the easiest ways to get direct feedback, is to work with someone who is a master already: spar one-on-one with a world champion, or play with a maestro, pair-program with an experienced veteran of several successful projects -- and you'll get much more from your sessions than if you practice alone, or with others that don't know what they're doing.

We often don't have the luxury of practising one-on-one with a master, and then the challenge becomes to a) still get correct feedback on what we're doing, and b) find out what we should be trying to achieve. The latter can sometimes be helped by looking at videos of people that preform at an excellent level, reading great code etc.

Re: Not All Practice Makes Perfect

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

agreed, practicing slow enough to get it right is the most important thing for sure. once thats in the bag, then the problem becomes getting it up to speed, and techniques you were using at the slow pace can be non-viable past certain tempos. for me, getting it up to speed involves constantly interspersing the slow flawless practice with attempts that are right on the threshold of what i can do, tempo wise.

I read somewhere that good practice for music specifically involves playing the piece through fast, ignoring your own errors, playing it through slowly enough that you don't make an error (and repeating this until you don't make an error), and then playing it at the intended tempo. So to someone this is a well-known idea. Is it not part of standard music instruction?

I think the point of it is just to push you out of ruts so that you can gain the motivation to get back on track in learning. A good coding analogy might be in biting the bullet and start coding when stuck in a paralysis analysis loop is often a necessity to move on.

Re: Not All Practice Makes Perfect

#39

One of my trainers always said 'Practise does not make perfect - practise makes permanence. Only perfect practise makes perfect'.

I'd wager most of us who have had training in something had a trainer that said that. I can't imagine one that wouldn't; like "use the best tool for the job", it's one of those trite sayings that makes one sound wise.

Re: Not All Practice Makes Perfect

#40
post #20
post #6

The article keeps hinting at deliberate practice including, > The approach that he took, which we will call “purposeful practice,” turned out to be incredibly successful for him. It isn’t always so successful, as we shall see, but it is more effective than the usual just-enough method—and it is a step toward deliberate practice, which is our ultimate goal. but then cuts off before it actually describes deliberate pra…

I literally said the same thing to my wife after reading this article out loud to her. "I guess I will have to buy the book!" Laughing as I assumed there was a book. I will likely research this topic further whether there is a book or not. Slightly related, I'm trying to learn how to read faster. My first goal is to become an average reader in terms of speed. My wife is an elementary teacher with a master's in remedi…

The article did not do a thorough job pointing to the new book: http://www.amazon.com/Peak-Secrets-New-Science-Expertise-ebo...

Also, I would recommend Moonwalking with Einstein which has fair bit of information on how to learn.

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