Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple Services Shut Down in China in Startling About-Face

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 88 posts

Re: Apple Services Shut Down in China in Startling About-Face

#61

Post by soperj »

philovivero wrote: post #41
soperj wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, most American companies don't collude to screw their workers.

I'm with kittypryde. I'll take a cite on that. Last I heard, Google, Facebook, Yahoo, Adobe, and a huge slew of smaller tech companies (if you want to stay in the same industry as Apple) had all colluded together to suppress wages. I have a hard time believing anyone who claims this was an exception to a rule. It seems far more likely to believe it is the rule.

Together with Apple. Who was the one forcing the issue?

Re: Apple Services Shut Down in China in Startling About-Face

#62

Post by mahranch »

L_Rahman wrote: post #32
DannyBee wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"it's Apple that needs China's market". I always hear this, but given the experience of most american companies in china, it seems little stretched.

For most American companies in China, this is true. For Apple it is not. From Ben Thompson at Stratechery: This is a very big deal. Feel free to ignore anyone making snarky comments about China’s average monthly wage being the same as the price of an iPhone 5C. The two pertinent facts about China are that: There is tremendous income disparity There are a TON of people So while many Western markets may have a greater…

Sure, those are facts. But here's another fact: Just because you have a large population doesn't mean your economy is destined for greatness. It doesn't mean you're destined to overtake the U.S and it doesn't mean your destined to evolve, improve or exceed. All it means is that you have a lot of people living in your country (poor people). Will they become middle class? Maybe. But it's most definitely not "certain".

The fact of the matter is that they do have a large population size and that presents its own problems for economic growth, believe it or not. Hell, it presents problems for the long-term stability of the country. Right now China's biggest threat is itself - corruption in China is a pervasive and massive problem (Source: https://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results). China isn't the only country with a massive population; India has one too. Ben Thompson's facts are also true about India.

Re: Apple Services Shut Down in China in Startling About-Face

#63

Post by zepto »

educar wrote: post #20
3pt14159 wrote: post #2

China has to play fairly carefully with Apple. On the one hand it's an American company that puts microphones and cameras into the cafes, offices, and bedrooms of many of their citizenry; but on the other hand, with decreasing competitiveness due to rising wages there isn't anything specifically _stopping_ Apple or other American tech companies from moving manufacturing out of China. Foxconn alone employs about 4.3 m…

You make it sound like Apple can easily move out of China. Think again. Apple's profits are largely due to the cheap labor market (just like many other companies)

This is simply false. The difference in labor cost makes only a small difference to Apple's profits.

The benefit to Apple of being in China is the responsiveness of the supply chain.

Re: Apple Services Shut Down in China in Startling About-Face

#64

Post by mahranch »

educar wrote: post #20
3pt14159 wrote: post #2

China has to play fairly carefully with Apple. On the one hand it's an American company that puts microphones and cameras into the cafes, offices, and bedrooms of many of their citizenry; but on the other hand, with decreasing competitiveness due to rising wages there isn't anything specifically _stopping_ Apple or other American tech companies from moving manufacturing out of China. Foxconn alone employs about 4.3 m…

You make it sound like Apple can easily move out of China. Think again. Apple's profits are largely due to the cheap labor market (just like many other companies)

> You make it sound like Apple can easily move out of China.

And you make it sound like cheap labor only exists in China.

Re: Apple Services Shut Down in China in Startling About-Face

#65

Post by tn13 »

Steko wrote: post #11
3pt14159 wrote: post #2

China has to play fairly carefully with Apple. On the one hand it's an American company that puts microphones and cameras into the cafes, offices, and bedrooms of many of their citizenry; but on the other hand, with decreasing competitiveness due to rising wages there isn't anything specifically _stopping_ Apple or other American tech companies from moving manufacturing out of China. Foxconn alone employs about 4.3 m…

I think you've got it backwards, it's Apple that needs China's market and China basicallly has them over a barrel on these secondary products. What China has to be careful of is eventually the US/EU decide to get tough on Chinese protectionism and impose significant barriers to goods manufactured in China. And that would also be bad for Apple again since they make their stuff in China.

I think you are ignoring the precedent effect. If China indeed does something nasty with Apple it is not Apple that is going to leave China but almost every vendor out there might start doing risk analysis. India's pro-market government is already trying to woo American manufacturers (but don't seem to succeeding yet).

Not to mention the governments of USA/EU etc. might do the same to Chinese companies.

Re: Apple Services Shut Down in China in Startling About-Face

#66

Post by Steko »

3nki wrote: post #47
Steko wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you've got it backwards, it's Apple that needs China's market and China basicallly has them over a barrel on these secondary products. What China has to be careful of is eventually the US/EU decide to get tough on Chinese protectionism and impose significant barriers to goods manufactured in China. And that would also be bad for Apple again since they make their stuff in China.

If China keeps giving western tech companies a hard time they might stop making their stuff in China. That would hurt the Chinese economy far more than they gain by local companies taking a little business from Apple and such.

That would have worked 15 years ago but again Apple needs access to China's market so they can't just unilaterally pull out their manufacturing.

Re: Apple Services Shut Down in China in Startling About-Face

#67

Post by SpaceX_Tech »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #26
educar wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make it sound like Apple can easily move out of China. Think again. Apple's profits are largely due to the cheap labor market (just like many other companies)

> Apple's profits are largely due to the cheap labor market (just like many other companies) Foxconn is replacing millions of workers in China with robotics. Couldn't Apple acquire these same robotics, perform their own manufacturing in the US (remember, substantial tax breaks in the US for equipment purchases!), and then lease out any spare capacity. Seems its all coming back to US shores. As a US citizen, I don't m…

I believe Apple, unlike most companies that contract manufacturing to places like Foxconn, actually owns most, if not all, of the equipment inside the Foxconn facilities. If what I've read is correct, Apple is completely responsible for setting up the actual assembly lines as well. Foxconn essentially just provides the factory space and the labor.

I've also heard that Apple is the largest purchaser of CNC machining equipment in the entire world.

I'm curious to know how many years away we are from robotics being able to complete the final assembly of small electronics at the same speeds and low prices as humans and what affect this will have on countries like China that rely heavily on low cost factory labor.

Re: Apple Services Shut Down in China in Startling About-Face

#68

Post by dilemma »

draw_down wrote: post #12
3pt14159 wrote: post #2

China has to play fairly carefully with Apple. On the one hand it's an American company that puts microphones and cameras into the cafes, offices, and bedrooms of many of their citizenry; but on the other hand, with decreasing competitiveness due to rising wages there isn't anything specifically _stopping_ Apple or other American tech companies from moving manufacturing out of China. Foxconn alone employs about 4.3 m…

I dunno. Cook recently said in an interview their manufacturing is in China not due to cost but because the supply chain is simply stronger there, and they can do things there that they can't elsewhere. Of course they could make a bold move like make a big outlay to get their supply chain operating in another country/region, that strikes me as something they could do. But it would be a really big deal.

>Of course they could make a bold move like make a big outlay to get their supply chain operating in another country/region, that strikes me as something they could do. But it would be a really big deal.

The supply chain is made up of thousands of companies who in turn rely on thousands of others. You can't recreate this top down, it has to be through organic growth.

Re: Apple Services Shut Down in China in Startling About-Face

#69

Post by Steko »

tn13 wrote: post #65
Steko wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you've got it backwards, it's Apple that needs China's market and China basicallly has them over a barrel on these secondary products. What China has to be careful of is eventually the US/EU decide to get tough on Chinese protectionism and impose significant barriers to goods manufactured in China. And that would also be bad for Apple again since they make their stuff in China.

I think you are ignoring the precedent effect. If China indeed does something nasty with Apple it is not Apple that is going to leave China but almost every vendor out there might start doing risk analysis. India's pro-market government is already trying to woo American manufacturers (but don't seem to succeeding yet). Not to mention the governments of USA/EU etc. might do the same to Chinese companies.

This isn't anything new. China kicked Google out 6 years ago.

> India's pro-market government

Is still behind China in many respects when it comes to pro-marketness.

> Not to mention the governments of USA/EU etc. might do the same to Chinese companies.

No I mentioned this explicitly.

Re: Apple Services Shut Down in China in Startling About-Face

#70

Post by 2muchcoffeeman »

SpaceX_Tech wrote: post #67
toomuchtodo wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple's profits are largely due to the cheap labor market (just like many other companies) Foxconn is replacing millions of workers in China with robotics. Couldn't Apple acquire these same robotics, perform their own manufacturing in the US (remember, substantial tax breaks in the US for equipment purchases!), and then lease out any spare capacity. Seems its all coming back to US shores. As a US citizen, I don't m…

I believe Apple, unlike most companies that contract manufacturing to places like Foxconn, actually owns most, if not all, of the equipment inside the Foxconn facilities. If what I've read is correct, Apple is completely responsible for setting up the actual assembly lines as well. Foxconn essentially just provides the factory space and the labor. I've also heard that Apple is the largest purchaser of CNC machining e…

Terry Gou, CEO of Foxxcon, predicted back in 2015, that in 3 years they would be able to complete 70% of it's assembly line work by robots.

I wonder what the remaining 30% is. It seems to me that the most delicate work is the stuff you want to automate the most to lower defects. The less delicate work can be done by humans. But the less delicate work should also be the most easily automated?

Post reply on HN