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The average size of Web pages is now the average size of a Doom install

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Re: The average size of Web pages is now the average size of a Doom install

#351

Oh God. Every discussion about the web will continue to be a mess until we clarify what we're talking about. Let's try rephrasing the title a couple times. Rephrase 1: "The average size of a webapp is now the average size of a Doom install". Response: Interesting, but not bad! Heck, some webapps are games. "The average size of a web game is now the average size of Doom" isn't a sentence that damns the web, it's a sen…

Web apps/documents both look pretty good compared to modern games, those things are 100s of MB at least.

Re: The average size of Web pages is now the average size of a Doom install

#352
It's initially cheaper to make larger web pages, you don't have to optimize for size (most of the time it would probably execute faster if it was smaller but probably not always). Some others make it larger on purpose for obfuscation (like Google).

Re: The average size of Web pages is now the average size of a Doom install

#353
post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. This is a backward-looking argument which ignores the unique benefits of the web which made it inevitable that it would evolve into an application platform, regardless of how tortured the results may feel. The web is the first truly cross-platform development environment. It is not controlled by a single vendor, and anyone implementing a new computing device must support the web (just stop for a second an…

"The web is the first truly cross-platform development environment." No it isn't. Not even close. It's maybe the first cross-platform development "environment" of which millenials are widely aware. But it's only an "environment" in the most ecological sense -- it's a collection of ugly hacks, each building upon the other, with the sort of complexity and incomprehensibility and interdependency of organisms you'd expec…

You are so right. The web as an application delivery platform sucks. And we are no even capable of producing UIs with the same level of polishment I did in visual basic 2.0 in 1996 or so.

Alan Kay has expressed the same filling.

PS to downvoters if you have not used a proper interface designer such a QT or Delphi, then you don't know what we mean. Please watch some videos to decide if the state of the art (angular and react) is what we should be using in 2016.

Re: The average size of Web pages is now the average size of a Doom install

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a more radical departure is needed. It's about time to acknowledge that the web is increasingly being used to access full-blown applications more often than "webpages." Web browsers have more or less become mini operating systems, running elaborate virtual machines. There's way too much complexity for everyone involved — from web devs and browser devs to the users and the people who maintain the standards, th…

> It's about time to acknowledge that the web is increasingly being used to access full-blown applications more often than "webpages." I think that is orthogonal to bloat. Sure, a complex app will always have more to load and compute than a static page with one blog post on it, but that doesn't mean an app can't be bloated on top of that, just like pages with just a single blog post on them can be bloated.

Speaking of bloat,

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11548816 - The average size of Web pages is now the average size of a Doom install

Re: The average size of Web pages is now the average size of a Doom install

#355
post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The web is the first truly cross-platform development environment." No it isn't. Not even close. It's maybe the first cross-platform development "environment" of which millenials are widely aware. But it's only an "environment" in the most ecological sense -- it's a collection of ugly hacks, each building upon the other, with the sort of complexity and incomprehensibility and interdependency of organisms you'd expec…

You are so right. The web as an application delivery platform sucks. And we are no even capable of producing UIs with the same level of polishment I did in visual basic 2.0 in 1996 or so. Alan Kay has expressed the same filling. PS to downvoters if you have not used a proper interface designer such a QT or Delphi, then you don't know what we mean. Please watch some videos to decide if the state of the art (angular an…

The downvotes are because he is not engaging with my point. Never did I say the web is a proper application development environment. My point was that you can't create a proper application development environment that is both an open and defacto standard the way the web is.

Re: The average size of Web pages is now the average size of a Doom install

#356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a more radical departure is needed. It's about time to acknowledge that the web is increasingly being used to access full-blown applications more often than "webpages." Web browsers have more or less become mini operating systems, running elaborate virtual machines. There's way too much complexity for everyone involved — from web devs and browser devs to the users and the people who maintain the standards, th…

Interestingly, this was what Alan Kay was advocating for on the web: "A bytecode VM og something like X for graphics" [1]. When Lars Bak and Kasper Lund launched Dart [2], I found it sad that they weren't more bold - left CSS and the DOM alone, and created an alternative Content-Type. So you can choose to Accept 'application/magic-bytecode' [3] before text/html, if your client supports so. Sadly, we ended up with Web…

Yes I think of dart as a missed opportunity, it isn't smalltalk for the web, neither is it strongly typed... I think this falt of character makes it that nobody hate it, but also no body loves it.

Go doesn't have generics, some hate it, some love it. But it took a strong stand on that point.

Re: The average size of Web pages is now the average size of a Doom install

#359
post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>make sure our computer was set to 800x600 Thaaaaaaaat's nonsense. I had relatively high-res CRTs (1600x1200) in the late 90s and early 2000s. My father and I were able to get by with Netscape Navigator and Firefox for quite awhile as well.

Here's a message from 2003. (scroll up) https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/uk.comp.os.linux/5c40N... > http://www.argos.co.uk > "Sorry, the Argos Internet site cannot currently be viewed using Netscape 6 or other browsers with the same rendering engine. > In the meantime, please use a different web browser or call 0870 600 2020 to order items from the Argos catalogue." > Sorry, I think I'll shop elsewhere until yo…

>This kind of thing wasn't rare, even in 2003.

And it is not rare now either. Nothing has changed in that regard. Things have just gotten massively slower, use insane amounts of CPU, and are less functional.

Re: The average size of Web pages is now the average size of a Doom install

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the checksum was the same and you accepted the cache hit if the checksum agrees and get your own copy if it doesn't? Maybe the application should get to declare a canonical URL for the js file instead of the browser? So something like https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/libs/jquery/1.12.2/jquery.m... sha-256="31be012d5df7152ae6495decff603040b3cfb949f1d5cf0bf5498e9fc117d546"> Would this cause more problems than i…

This seems a little redundant - why not just ? If you wanted to explicitly fetch from google if the client doesn't have a cached copy, then instead do The first would seem preferable though, as loading from an external source would expose the user to cross-site tracking.

> The first would seem preferable though, as loading from an external source would expose the user to cross-site tracking.

You're right in that the first one you had with just the sha-256 would be pretty much equivalent as what I had especially given that hn readers have resoundingly given support to the idea that it is non-trivial to create a malicious file with the same hash as our script file. I was simply trying to be cautious and retain some control for the web application (even if the extra sense of security is misplaced).

This is the use case I'm trying to protect by adding a new "canonical" reference that the web application decides. As others in this thread have said, it is very unlikely that someone will be able to craft a malicious script with the same hash as what I already have. The reason I still stand by including both is firstly compatibility (I hope browsers can simply ignore the sha-256 hash and the authorized cache links if they don't know what to do with it).

As a noscript user, I do not want to trust y0l0swagg3r cdn (just giving an example, please forgive me if this is your company name). NoScript blocks everything other than a select whitelist. If the CDN happens to be blocked, my website should still continue to function loading the script from my server.

My motivation here was to allow perhaps even smaller companies to sort of pool their common files into their own cdn? " rel="nofollow">https://cdn.jimacajs.example.com/v1/12/34/jimaca.js""> I also want to avoid a situation where Microsoft can come to me and tell me that I can't name my js files microsoft.js or something. The chances of an accidental collision are apparently very close to zero so I agree with you that there is room for improvement. (:

This is definitely not an RFC or anything formal. I am just a student and in no position to actually effect any change or even make a formal proposal.

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