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Snowden Seeks Assurance from Norway It Won’t Extradite Him

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Re: Snowden Seeks Assurance from Norway It Won’t Extradite Him

#71

Post by woodman »

rl3 wrote: post #56
woodman wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...face the music. I've never heard that phrase used but to describe the consequences of a malevolent action. I'm interested to hear a rational explanation for why anyone would think that Snowden's whistleblowing was anything but altruistic. Some may say that the good intentions were misguided, but again - I've never heard the phrase used that way. The man wearing full plate armor, while trying to save a horse caug…

> I've never heard that phrase used but to describe the consequences of a malevolent action. It also applies to the consequences of reckless or negligent behavior. Of course, "facing the music" would pretty much guarantee a life sentenced served at ADX Florence, so he'd be insane to even try it. > I'm interested to hear a rational explanation for why anyone would think that Snowden's whistleblowing was anything but a…

First: thanks for answering the actual question.

> It also applies to the consequences of reckless or negligent behavior.

It does, but is rarely used that way. The man wearing a sausage link necklace went on a nature walk and faced the music when bears showed up. I'm just pointing out that the phrase is heavily biased to the point of being a dog whistle.

> It could very well be narcissism masquerading as altruism.

While possible, it is very unlikely that such a trait would manifest at this point in his life. I see no evidence of it in what little I know about his history, and a narcissist would be busy filling that gap. Also, and I recognize the value of a stranger's personal experience, but in my experience: the background checks conducted for security clearance above secret (for military personnel) will filter a lot of narcissists out - as their story fails to match up when you go a hop beyond their provided references.

> There's a small chance he's even been been working for...

So small that it is as equally likely that he is a quadruple agent still acting under the orders of the USG.

> ...the end result was massive damage to U.S. foreign policy.

Eh, I'm not a fan of the original sin concept - but the USG might share some of the responsibility. As far as the classified methods - you are spot on with the observation of the fact that there was nothing new. There were two classes of people before the leak: those who knew that USG had the technical ability and the disposition for a global dragnet, and those who didn't. Aside from posturing (commercial and political) there has been no change, which means the leak of operational details has had no operational impact (likely because it was already well known). So the leak did no harm to the security apparatus, but served to inform those who did not understand the USG's disposition on the matter of domestic and foreign surveillance.

Re: Snowden Seeks Assurance from Norway It Won’t Extradite Him

#72

Post by woodman »

wildmusings wrote: post #58
woodman wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...face the music. I've never heard that phrase used but to describe the consequences of a malevolent action. I'm interested to hear a rational explanation for why anyone would think that Snowden's whistleblowing was anything but altruistic. Some may say that the good intentions were misguided, but again - I've never heard the phrase used that way. The man wearing full plate armor, while trying to save a horse caug…

> I'm interested to hear a rational explanation for why anyone would think that Snowden's whistleblowing was anything but altruistic. He divulged a lot of information about America's foreign intelligence operations as well. Spying on other countries is the original and core mission of the intelligence services. There's no question as to its legal legitimacy and he directly undermined it by revealing the nature and ex…

That has nothing to do with his intent though, altruistic vs malevolent.

> There's no question as to its legal legitimacy...

Well maybe if you ignore the whole domestic surveillance part. There is also the moral and practical issue of intentionally weakening security infrastructure and standards.

Re: Snowden Seeks Assurance from Norway It Won’t Extradite Him

#73

Post by gurkendoktor »

wildmusings wrote: post #58
woodman wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...face the music. I've never heard that phrase used but to describe the consequences of a malevolent action. I'm interested to hear a rational explanation for why anyone would think that Snowden's whistleblowing was anything but altruistic. Some may say that the good intentions were misguided, but again - I've never heard the phrase used that way. The man wearing full plate armor, while trying to save a horse caug…

> I'm interested to hear a rational explanation for why anyone would think that Snowden's whistleblowing was anything but altruistic. He divulged a lot of information about America's foreign intelligence operations as well. Spying on other countries is the original and core mission of the intelligence services. There's no question as to its legal legitimacy and he directly undermined it by revealing the nature and ex…

> It also caused serious diplomatic and political problems, with Germany for example.

It didn't really look like a serious problem from within Germany. Our administration is as pro-US as before. We've stopped sharing some information, but I doubt that has caused the NSA much trouble.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany–United_States_relation...

Re: Snowden Seeks Assurance from Norway It Won’t Extradite Him

#74

Post by _0w8t »

alkonaut wrote: post #66

I assume Norways laws work similar to Swedens, meaning there can be no guarantees of non-extradiction (because preempting a legal decision usinga a political one is illegal, and the extradiction would be handled only when it is requested - which can only be done once he is actually in norway). So the same thing might happen to Snowden that happened to Assange - no guarantees up front. The best they can do in that cas…

Exactly! It is up to the court system to decide what to do about a particular case. Any promise from a government official will be a lie.

Re: Snowden Seeks Assurance from Norway It Won’t Extradite Him

#75

Post by rl3 »

woodman wrote: post #71
rl3 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've never heard that phrase used but to describe the consequences of a malevolent action. It also applies to the consequences of reckless or negligent behavior. Of course, "facing the music" would pretty much guarantee a life sentenced served at ADX Florence, so he'd be insane to even try it. > I'm interested to hear a rational explanation for why anyone would think that Snowden's whistleblowing was anything but a…

First: thanks for answering the actual question. > It also applies to the consequences of reckless or negligent behavior. It does, but is rarely used that way. The man wearing a sausage link necklace went on a nature walk and faced the music when bears showed up. I'm just pointing out that the phrase is heavily biased to the point of being a dog whistle. > It could very well be narcissism masquerading as altruism. Wh…

>It does, but is rarely used that way. The man wearing a sausage link necklace went on a nature walk and faced the music when bears showed up.

That assumes the man did not first violate the sausage factory's trust by breaking numerous agreements pertaining to sausage use.

>I'm just pointing out that the phrase is heavily biased to the point of being a dog whistle.

Agreed; I dislike the phrase as well. It however doesn't absolve Snowden of responsibility.

>I see no evidence of it in what little I know about his history, and a narcissist would be busy filling that gap.

My read is he's a bit self-aggrandizing and narcissistic at times. I'm not a professional, so that's only as good as any other lay person's assessment.

>So small that it is as equally likely that he is a quadruple agent still acting under the orders of the USG.

Or worse, the sausage factory.

In all seriousness though, I'd classify the chances of him being a foreign intelligence asset as low—but not low enough so as to be non-trivial.

>... which means the leak of operational details has had no operational impact (likely because it was already well known).

I wouldn't be so sure:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9508191

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEVlyP4_11M#t=20m39s (Last Week Tonight with John Oliver)

Re: Snowden Seeks Assurance from Norway It Won’t Extradite Him

#76

Post by dagw »

rdancer wrote: post #39
knorby wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With roads north of the arctic circle. It looks like it would be difficult to do that without crossing into either Sweden or Finland too, which would be an issue for Snowden.

The drive would take less than three days each way[1]. Spring is upon us, and the temperatures en-route currently straddle the freezing point[2][3]. [1] https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/Moscow,+Russia/Oslo,+Norwa... [2] https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=weather+olderfjord [3] https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=murmansk+weather+10+day+fo...

He could also fly to Murmansk and cut the drive in half. Personally I'd fly to Murmansk, drive a couple of hours to Kirkenes, and spend a few lovely days taking the boat down the coast to Bergen before grabbing a train to Oslo.

Re: Snowden Seeks Assurance from Norway It Won’t Extradite Him

#77

Post by _0w8t »

rdancer wrote: post #13
xaduha wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would Putin even let him leave Russia?

Do they have a no-fly list now as well?

In Norway on my last few domestic flights or flights to Scandinavian countries I was not asked to present any ID. Ticket on a mobile screen was enough. But on some domestic flight in 2014 I was asked for ID.

Re: Snowden Seeks Assurance from Norway It Won’t Extradite Him

#78

Post by alkonaut »

_0w8t wrote: post #74
alkonaut wrote: post #66

I assume Norways laws work similar to Swedens, meaning there can be no guarantees of non-extradiction (because preempting a legal decision usinga a political one is illegal, and the extradiction would be handled only when it is requested - which can only be done once he is actually in norway). So the same thing might happen to Snowden that happened to Assange - no guarantees up front. The best they can do in that cas…

Exactly! It is up to the court system to decide what to do about a particular case. Any promise from a government official will be a lie.

They can circumvent it pretty easily by not saying "We will not extradite Edward Snowden" but simply doing by making a very clear statement of two facts: i) "We do not extradite anyone who would risk a death penalty" and ii) "We believe it is clear that Edward Snowden would risk a death penalty in the US".

Having said those two things (which they can), they have implied the what he wants to know, without breaking any laws.

Re: Snowden Seeks Assurance from Norway It Won’t Extradite Him

#79

Post by woodman »

rl3 wrote: post #75
woodman wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First: thanks for answering the actual question. > It also applies to the consequences of reckless or negligent behavior. It does, but is rarely used that way. The man wearing a sausage link necklace went on a nature walk and faced the music when bears showed up. I'm just pointing out that the phrase is heavily biased to the point of being a dog whistle. > It could very well be narcissism masquerading as altruism. Wh…

> It does, but is rarely used that way. The man wearing a sausage link necklace went on a nature walk and faced the music when bears showed up. That assumes the man did not first violate the sausage factory's trust by breaking numerous agreements pertaining to sausage use. > I'm just pointing out that the phrase is heavily biased to the point of being a dog whistle. Agreed; I dislike the phrase as well. It however do…

> That assumes the man did not first violate...

My point exactly - your brain skips right over reckless or accidental and goes straight to malice.

> ...doesn't absolve Snowden of responsibility.

Not my intent, just pointing out the use of the phrase betrayed a thinly veiled hope for some federal pound me in the ass prison time.

> ...foreign high-level leadership targets...

If you are referring to NATO allies, then I think the lack of actual response beyond grandstanding indicates that they were aware already.

> ...clandestine hardware implantation in transit...

This was already well known, supply chain security isn't a new concept. The consumers were the only ones surprised by this revelation.

> ...co-traveler inference as a method...

Funny you should mention this. Check drudge, where you'll find "Ex-CIA officer faces 'unprecedented' extradition..." [0] The Italian police used this technique to identify 22 individuals alleged to be part of a CIA snatch team, in 2005. [1] So not a big hit to lose a secret surveillance method that had been widely used by foreign governments for at least a decade prior to the leak.

[0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/ex-cia-officer-faces-ex... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Omar_case

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