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Let's Kill All the Mosquitoes

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Re: Let's Kill All the Mosquitoes

#421

Post by Dove »

givan wrote: post #364
Dove wrote: post #338

I am astonished by the comments in this thread. Many people seem to assume that the chance of disaster as a result of wiping out mosquitoes is high - a sentiment I can only assume arises from having watched a lot of movies with the Arrogant And Foolish Scientist's Ill-Thought-Out Plan Backfires plot. It is good to think through consequences, but supposing that real world scientists acting deliberately and collaborati…

1 mosquitos only carries diseases, many other species do this, for example rats spread the plague in the dark ages, even infected humans spread diseases. 2 there is no expert or science that can fully understand the whole ecosystem and how it works, mosquitos and many insects are at the base of the food chain, the impact will probably be a domino effect that will make many other species extinct, where will this lead?…

there is no expert or science that can fully understand the whole ecosystem and how it works, mosquitos and many insects are at the base of the food chain, the impact will probably be a domino effect that will make many other species extinct, where will this lead? nobody knows

Ok, this. This is the chain of reasoning I'm talking about.

It is the very height of hubris to say that the people who manage and study ecosystems don't understand them, and to imply that they are ignorant of something so basic as the food chain. I don't understand where this is coming from.

And there will probably be a domino effect that will wipe out many species? "Probably"? Like, more than 50% odds? Really?

When multiple professionals are willing to go on record saying the impact will likely be negligible, what makes you so darn sure they're wrong? The only place I can imagine this is coming from is some combination of "Science is Hard" and "Nature Messes You Up Whenever You Mess With It In The Movies"!

Re: Let's Kill All the Mosquitoes

#422

Post by wainstead »

masklinn wrote: post #374
alwaysdoit wrote: post #38

We've done this lots[1] of[2] times[3] when it threatens agriculture, but when it threatens the lives of poor people in third world countries, suddenly we're worried about the ecosystem? There will be an environmental impact, but it will be from hundreds of millions of humans not getting malaria and climbing their way out of property, not from the lack of mosquitoes in the ecosystem. It's still a significant problem,…

> There will be an environmental impact, but it will be from hundreds of millions of humans not getting malaria and climbing their way out of property, not from the lack of mosquitoes in the ecosystem. It's still a significant problem, but our current solution of "let all the poor people die" is not a good one. Ecosystem-wise, let's not forget mosquitoes and their diseases are as much threat as they are content. Hawa…

And the Aedes aegypti mosquito is an invasive species here in the Florida Keys. Eradicating an invasive species sounds like a good idea to me.

Re: Let's Kill All the Mosquitoes

#423

Post by jdcarter »

MattGrommes wrote: post #266
jdcarter wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, that's crazy, a laser/computer combo mounted on fence posts, which is able to determine the type and gender of insect, and only shoot the right kind of disease-carrying mosquitos. "the Photonic Fence can kill up to 50 to 100 mosquitoes a second, at a maximum range of 100 ft." Also interesting, I thought Intellectual Ventures was only a patent troll, I didn't know they did actual research work as well.

It might be uncharitable to say but it's always been my opinion that their lab and token inventions are cover for their patent trolling activities. Actual inventions from their people are few and far between.

Unfortunately IV purchased all the patents of a company I used to work for, General Magic, after it died. Several of us wanted to open-source Magic's source code, but we'd potentially face prosecution from IV if we did. So much cool stuff there, it's really a pity.

Re: Let's Kill All the Mosquitoes

#424

Post by rsync »

saulrh wrote: post #60

Most of the "whoops" tales are people that didn't listen to their scientists telling them not to, didn't have scientists at all, or were from long enough ago that we can discard their stories as irrelevant in the same way that we'd discard things like "spaceflight is impossible" and "nukes will end war". We've now traced the food chain around malaria mosquitoes out to three or four degrees of separation, including th…

"Granted, we can never be certain about it. We're not deities, we're still limited by information theory and epistemology. But we're pretty damn sure. Way more than we need to be to go save half a million people a year."

(I support eradicating mosquitos)

What is missing from this discussion, however, is the agent of malaria itself. We keep discussing this in terms of the mosquito, as if it is the mosquito that is the agent of malaria - but remember, it's just a carrier - malaria is using the mosquito to further its own ends.

The reservations I think we should have are not about the food chain or about predators/prey, etc. - it is that the sudden pressure we put on malaria itself forces it to adapt to a transmission host/vector other than mosquitos. Perhaps something more difficult to deal with.

We're pushing something dangerous into a corner, bottling it up under high pressure ... we should be worried about where it leaks out to.

Re: Let's Kill All the Mosquitoes

#425

Post by givan »

Dove wrote: post #421
givan wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1 mosquitos only carries diseases, many other species do this, for example rats spread the plague in the dark ages, even infected humans spread diseases. 2 there is no expert or science that can fully understand the whole ecosystem and how it works, mosquitos and many insects are at the base of the food chain, the impact will probably be a domino effect that will make many other species extinct, where will this lead?…

there is no expert or science that can fully understand the whole ecosystem and how it works, mosquitos and many insects are at the base of the food chain, the impact will probably be a domino effect that will make many other species extinct, where will this lead? nobody knows Ok, this. This is the chain of reasoning I'm talking about. It is the very height of hubris to say that the people who manage and study ecosys…

Food chain is not something basic or simple, maybe only as a a very abstract concept, because our lives and of other species depend on it and this makes it very important and should be treated carefully.

For example another insect that might seem not important to the food chain, the bee, is crucial for agriculture and for our food.

If you don't understand the domino effect part you should study a little bit about birds, reptiles and other species that feed on mosquitoes and then you can look higher in the chain on what other animals feed on that birds and reptiles and you will understand how many species will be affected.

Scientists unfortunately can't predict effects in very complex systems, not even the most complex computers can simulate something that looks very simple like the weather, this is why we can never predict it accurately and for long periods of time even if we have a lot of data.

As I said effects on complex systems can't be predicted by scientists, maybe only in a very limited superficial way, if this weren't true we wouldn't have fukushima, cernobal, oil spills, plastic island in the ocean, increased ocean acidity etc, scientists would have everything in control.

Science is cool and is a marvelous tool for knowledge but don't underestimate it's limitations.

Re: Let's Kill All the Mosquitoes

#426

Post by Gmo »

XFrequentist wrote: post #402
fiblye wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're comparing individual species with an entire family. Countless animals rely on mosquitoes as a valuable food source. And before someone brings up the tired "mosquito predators all eat things besides mosquitoes" argument, people eat food besides grains. It doesn't mean we wouldn't still be 100% fucked if rice and wheat went extinct overnight.

>You're comparing individual species with an entire family. The GP may well have done so, but most extreme proposals are to eliminate parts of the genuses Aedes , Anopholes , and Culex - together about 2% of the genetic diversity of the family Culicidae . >Countless animals rely on mosquitoes as a valuable food source. I'd be interested in seeing some concrete evidence that this is true; I've looked unsuccessfully. S…

Spiders ?

Re: Let's Kill All the Mosquitoes

#427

Post by logfromblammo »

jonahrd wrote: post #22

I remember reading some old tale about all the animals gathering to decide what to do about humanity. Every animal hated humans, so they all voted to destroy us. Except the mosquito, which was the only one to stand up for us because they needed food. The moral of the story was that in return for looking out for us, we should let mosquitoes drink what they need from us. (not my story, I read it in a history book about…

Fables are crafted to convey the moral, rather than deriving the moral from natural circumstance.

I recall reading a tale with animals interacting with a human. There was something about the chicken wanting to be saved from the wolf, so it gave the human its eggs. The cow wanted to be saved from the wolf, so it gave the human its milk. The horse wanted to be saved from the wolf, so it gave the human its strength and speed. They all end up slaughtered and eaten by the human and his "dog" (a.k.a. the wolf) when they were no longer useful in any other way. The chicken stopped laying. snap The cow stopped milking. slice The horse went lame. bang The moral of the story was essentially, "hahahaha, you stupid animals got played!"

On a side note, any animal story where the dog does not side with the human is clearly bunkum. And in any animal U.N., clearly, the human is a veto-wielding permanent member of the security council, so the mosquito, the North Korea of unpopular animals, was just sucking up to a major power to get more food aid. And in that case, we should let the mosquito go pound sand, because they will never stop being annoying little jerks.

Re: Let's Kill All the Mosquitoes

#428

Post by dllthomas »

_AllisonMobley wrote: post #344
dllthomas wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard that's not true. I've never investigated it to verify, and personally thought it was a little hard to believe, but nonetheless your assumption may not be correct.

What's going on here. Is this an HN meme?

My understanding of the situation: the grandparent's comment provided little value, and could be reasonably applied to virtually any comment without adding much opportunity for the reader to educate themselves or to respond. nightfly apparently noticed that "any comment", of course, includes the comment itself.

I found that amusing, and carried on in kind.

Re: Let's Kill All the Mosquitoes

#429

Post by dllthomas »

_AllisonMobley wrote: post #362
lifeformed wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There will be side effects, but could it really be worse than the alternative? That is, one million deaths per year.

At a certain point you're saving people so they can starve to death. That's the worst case. Best case: saving them speeds up how soon we run out of non-renewable resources. What's more merciful to mankind as a whole in the long run? I'd say it's keeping the planet in good shape, and I don't see how eradicating malaria can do anything but hurt that goal.

When mortality rates fall, birth rates typically fall more.

Re: Let's Kill All the Mosquitoes

#430

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

azazqadir wrote: post #383
TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really understand why we're arguing about this. How many species have we lost as a result of human activity? What's one more. Here's a list[1]. Fuck the mosquito. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_extinct_animals 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thylacine

The point is we are deliberately trying to eliminate their existence and we will be directly responsible for that.

See my second reference to the Thylacine. We deliberately tried to eliminate that creature and succeeded.
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