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Let's Kill All the Mosquitoes

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Re: Let's Kill All the Mosquitoes

#361
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that invasive species are considered harmful to the ecosystem while naturally spread species are considered part of the ecosystem.

Who gets to decide what is "harmful" and what isn't? Why is it necessarily better to have one animal species in a certain area rather than another? Valuing native species over invasive species seems like an arbitrary human value judgment. (I don't necessarily disagree with eradicating invasive species, but I've noticed that people often haven't thought it through or considered their biases.)

Reminds my if an old timey sayjng—"A weed is just a plant out of place."

And back on topic - Kill 'em all - native, invasive, makes no difference. As I read the expert concensus, after eradication the likelihood of some edge case eco-dependency being revealed should be vanishingly small, whereas the status quo allows millions of homo sapiens to be sickened and or killed.

That seems like easy math to me.

NB: I'm a Southerner (Peach state) so I'll admit I carry a strong, but well earned, hatred of the vile creatures.

Re: Let's Kill All the Mosquitoes

#362
post #5

This is one of those ideas that sounds genius on its face, until it's actually implemented. Kudzu? Grows fast, prevents erosion, let's pay farmers to till it into the top soil. MTBE? Prevents engine knock, makes for cleaner air, let's mandate its use at the federal level. Whoopsie, once it's in the water we can't get it out, and its a carcinogen. Let's kill all of the mosquitos because we find their presence unpleasa…

There will be side effects, but could it really be worse than the alternative? That is, one million deaths per year.

At a certain point you're saving people so they can starve to death. That's the worst case. Best case: saving them speeds up how soon we run out of non-renewable resources. What's more merciful to mankind as a whole in the long run? I'd say it's keeping the planet in good shape, and I don't see how eradicating malaria can do anything but hurt that goal.

Re: Let's Kill All the Mosquitoes

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Evolution doesn't have an intent. Diseases can't "evolve themselves." I know. But when you remove mosquitoes from the picture, aren't you putting selection pressure on the diseases to be airborne? >Evolution happens through random mutations* and selection of the fittest... Yes. Say a virus of a disease x that normally spreads via mosquitos, gain a mutation to be airborne. But since there are an abundance of mosquito…

(I'm a layperson, too, for the record.) "I know. But when you remove mosquitoes from the picture, aren't you putting selection pressure on the diseases to be airborne?" Not necessarily that specific pressure. Except in carefully controlled laboratory situations, we can't specify the selection pressure being applied. There are too many potential pressures at work, and the mutation outcomes are too stochastic. At best…

There seems to be a mixup here between "pressure" as in "this organism is under pressure" (implying an unfavorable environment) and selection pressure, which acts on genes, not species, and is really more of a filter.

It's not as if an organism can "release" the "pressure" by evolving in a new direction. In your example, if we eradicate mosquitos, one transmission vector becoming less viable doesn't make other vectors more likely to arise, as if by some conservation of total population.

> least costly alternative in response to imposed pressures

Evolution is even lazier, alternatives don't arise in response to imposed pressures at all, so in this scenario the lazy thing is extinction.

Re: Let's Kill All the Mosquitoes

#364
post #338

I am astonished by the comments in this thread. Many people seem to assume that the chance of disaster as a result of wiping out mosquitoes is high - a sentiment I can only assume arises from having watched a lot of movies with the Arrogant And Foolish Scientist's Ill-Thought-Out Plan Backfires plot. It is good to think through consequences, but supposing that real world scientists acting deliberately and collaborati…

1 mosquitos only carries diseases, many other species do this, for example rats spread the plague in the dark ages, even infected humans spread diseases.

2 there is no expert or science that can fully understand the whole ecosystem and how it works, mosquitos and many insects are at the base of the food chain, the impact will probably be a domino effect that will make many other species extinct, where will this lead? nobody knows, it's like playing with fire.

Wiping out entire species to solve the spread of a virus is not only inefficient (there are other ways it can spread) and dumb but also dangerous, it's like a solution of an infant that can only think destroy destroy.

We need creative and intelligent ideas for hard problems, not simple and stupid infant like ideas, and hn is a place where people with such ideas gather this is why you see more of these comments.

Re: Let's Kill All the Mosquitoes

#365
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do sterile mosquitos spread their genes? (Genuine question! I don't know what the risk is)

When using sterile mosquitoes, the idea isn't that they pass on their genes, but that they dominate mating and therefore disrupt the breeding cycle. I.e. you release LOTS of sterile males and the normal females spend time mating with them instead of normal males and the population therefore decreases (until you run out of sterile males). I think the better option (also in the article) is to release engineered males t…

> I think the better option (also in the article) is to release engineered males that result on male only offspring. Eventually you run out of females and the species dies off.

This is a double win, since male mosquitos don't bite animals.

Re: Let's Kill All the Mosquitoes

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of asking for credentials, just think a little harder. If "airborne malaria" could possibly be a thing, it would already be a thing. Plasmodium isn't a work crew responsible for killing a given number of people every year, after which they relax for a bit, only getting really creative when they fall behind their quota. It is a reproducing species that will reproduce and thrive as much as possible. There is no…

Sorry. I have to ask this to you also. Are you a biologists/ecologists or some one knowledgable in the field?

I can tell you both the parent and grandparent posters are knowledgeable enough to help answer your question. I think you're misunderstanding how evolution and selection pressure work at a conceptual level, and you don't need an evolutionary biologist to give expert input on it any more than you need an astronomer to explain why the moon has phases.

Let me take one more crack at this: think of natural selection as evaluating `if` statements: "if this organism has the ability to spread through the air, then it is more likely to survive an reproduce". That means mutations enabling that are going to propagate. Doesn't make any mutation more or less likely; it's just a question of whether it survives and reproduces or not. Importantly, it does not say "if this is a big improvement over the status quo, keep it". The forces at play here don't know what "improvement" means and they don't know what the status quo is (though see below about competition).

The point the parent and GP were making is that the advantage in being airborne exists whether or not malaria is being killed off. Right now, before any mosquito-killing-off initiatives, a plasmodium would do very well for itself and its offspring by escaping the confines of a mosquito and infecting zillions of people through the air. Its chances of reproduction in that scenario are presumably high, because there are so many people to infect. It doesn't become more likely to make that mutation and survive the results if its vector is being killed off. It doesn't know it's being killed off.

So how does selection pressure fit in? Imagine a beetle. If you change something about its environment, say, by introducing a new predator, then traits which previously provided the beetle no advantage (say, tasting bad to that predator) suddenly provide that advantage. Then the `if` statements are decidedly different now! It's not that the tasting-bad mutation is more likely to happen, it's just more likely to impact survival. So you expect more of that mutation to survive, and soon you get a whole ton of beetles that taste terrible to our new predator. But note how this doesn't help malaria go airborne because there's no "suddenly provide an advantage" part. It was always an advantage. That it might now impact whether the species survives or isn't part of the `if` statement.

One possible way in which this can be confusing is what the GP was specifically addressing: often the value of a mutation is a function of how it affects the organism's ability to compete with the rest of the species. If there's only so much food around, then being slightly better or worse at eating it affects an organism's survival because it needs to be better at eating than its brethren or it will starve. So in that case the current state of affairs gets baked into the `if` statement. The thing to note is that this logic doesn't apply to malaria going airborne; there isn't a competition over humans to infect.

Re: Let's Kill All the Mosquitoes

#368
http://atlassociety.org/commentary/commentary-blog/3896-deat...

"What does it mean in practice to hold a philosophy that declares that pristine nature has intrinsic value in itself, and that regards Man and his activities as intrusive threats to the so-called ecological balance?

I have discussed the history, meaning, and basic premises of environmentalism previously, in my monograph The Green Machine and in my recorded talk "Green Cathedrals." I also explore these issues on my ecoNOT.com website.

But here I want to focus on the consequences of accepting core environmentalist premises—specifically, their deadly impact on human life."

Those who object to the eradication of mosquitoes are stating pretty clearly the value of human life according to their philosophy.

Re: Let's Kill All the Mosquitoes

#370
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure that people back then were rather clear on the idea that if something you put in the ground makes food and seeds you're gonna want to keep the seeds to make more.

But then you become a slave of those pesky humans and their whims, while trees grow freely in forests where they didn't face much danger from humans before the industrial revolution.

Actually in Europe there was heavy deforestation between 1100 and 1500 already.
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