Estimating Community Drug Abuse by Wastewater Analysis • Hacker News Board

Re: Estimating Community Drug Abuse by Wastewater Analysis

#21

Post by chillingeffect » Wed, Apr 20, 2016, 2:51 PM UTC

bottled_poe wrote: post #17

antihero wrote: post #16

> The social and medical problems of drug abuse are a matter of increasing global concern. citation needed Frankly I don't think people take enough drugs. We could do with a few more open minds instead of the horrific mess the squares have got us into.

And what mess might that be?

Falsified nutrition and health info. Dysfunctional schooling. Nuclear proliferation. Chronic institutional racism. Legalized lobbying and corporate fundraising. Disintegration of the middle class. Ubiquitous debt. Corporate financial corruption.

A widespread movement of empathy and egolessness (inspired or not by psychedelics) would help us share, help one another and redirect our values to and not waste so much time and resources.

Re: Estimating Community Drug Abuse by Wastewater Analysis

#22

Post by anon4 » Wed, Apr 20, 2016, 2:53 PM UTC

antihero wrote: post #16

> The social and medical problems of drug abuse are a matter of increasing global concern. citation needed Frankly I don't think people take enough drugs. We could do with a few more open minds instead of the horrific mess the squares have got us into.

It is of global concern. It might not be of global public concern and indeed, it might be the case that most of the global public would be up for not calling it abuse, but there is definitely a global body of people who are concerned with it.

Re: Estimating Community Drug Abuse by Wastewater Analysis

#23

Post by baldfat » Wed, Apr 20, 2016, 3:06 PM UTC

mrob wrote: post #3

This isn't estimating drug abuse, it's estimating drug use. Wastewater measurements alone are not enough to determine how much of that use is harmful.

So how much cocaine or heroine is non-harmful? I would even say cannabis is also shown to be harmful cognitively unless someone stops for 4 weeks but I digress.

Re: Estimating Community Drug Abuse by Wastewater Analysis

#24

Post by doyoulikeworms » Wed, Apr 20, 2016, 3:32 PM UTC

baldfat wrote: post #23

mrob wrote: post #3

This isn't estimating drug abuse, it's estimating drug use. Wastewater measurements alone are not enough to determine how much of that use is harmful.

So how much cocaine or heroine is non-harmful? I would even say cannabis is also shown to be harmful cognitively unless someone stops for 4 weeks but I digress.

Every drug has its physical costs. Some more than others. Alcohol, for instance, has no non-harmful dose-- even one glass of wine with dinner is bad for your body-- but many people drink throughout their long healthy lives.

That said, "harmful" drug use in this case likely refers to exceptional harm, perhaps including addiction or overdose.

You can be given, essentially, heroin at the hospital if in extreme pain. Would you consider this to be "non-harmful"? I would.

Re: Estimating Community Drug Abuse by Wastewater Analysis

#25

Post by cname » Wed, Apr 20, 2016, 3:40 PM UTC

baldfat wrote: post #23

mrob wrote: post #3

This isn't estimating drug abuse, it's estimating drug use. Wastewater measurements alone are not enough to determine how much of that use is harmful.

So how much cocaine or heroine is non-harmful? I would even say cannabis is also shown to be harmful cognitively unless someone stops for 4 weeks but I digress.

About cannabis, you would say that based on what?

Re: Estimating Community Drug Abuse by Wastewater Analysis

#26

Post by Retric » Wed, Apr 20, 2016, 3:42 PM UTC

irremediable wrote: post #18

antihero wrote: post #16

> The social and medical problems of drug abuse are a matter of increasing global concern. citation needed Frankly I don't think people take enough drugs. We could do with a few more open minds instead of the horrific mess the squares have got us into.

A citation wouldn't be used for that sentence, by convention, because it's in the article's abstract, rather than in the article proper. Moreover, regardless of what you think about drug (ab)use, it is a matter of increasing global concern. That doesn't imply anything about enforcement, legalisation, etc; it's just a statement of fact.

As far as I can tell it's a matter of decreasing global concern. US pushed a huge swath of global drug policy, and now that it's backtracking more reasonable responses are becoming common.

Re: Estimating Community Drug Abuse by Wastewater Analysis

#27

Post by irremediable » Wed, Apr 20, 2016, 3:51 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #26

irremediable wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A citation wouldn't be used for that sentence, by convention, because it's in the article's abstract, rather than in the article proper. Moreover, regardless of what you think about drug (ab)use, it is a matter of increasing global concern. That doesn't imply anything about enforcement, legalisation, etc; it's just a statement of fact.

As far as I can tell it's a matter of decreasing global concern. US pushed a huge swath of global drug policy, and now that it's backtracking more reasonable responses are becoming common.

Maybe now, though the article's from 2008 and it's only comparatively recently in history that the drug war began. I mean, fair point, but it seems we're just quibbling about a background sentence. Even if it did oversell the problem/motivation, that's not unheard of in academic papers...

Re: Estimating Community Drug Abuse by Wastewater Analysis

#28

Post by willholloway » Wed, Apr 20, 2016, 3:58 PM UTC

antihero wrote: post #16

> The social and medical problems of drug abuse are a matter of increasing global concern. citation needed Frankly I don't think people take enough drugs. We could do with a few more open minds instead of the horrific mess the squares have got us into.

I think this argument needs to get more granular.

With our newfound increased ability to look under the hood of the brain with things like fMRI, the research is getting pretty clear that there are few activites in life more irrational than compulsive use of certain types of drugs. Drugs that down-regulate brain systems, like amphetamine, cocaine, opiates or benzodiazepines.

In those cases, what goes up must come down, and you end up with less of what you wanted than when you started. For example, chronic cocaine administration results in lower dopamine levels which means a muting of pleasure from ordinary experiences.

People try to self-medicate a need, and end up worse off neurochemically, and the financial, legal and social cost can end up finishing them off.

What is really needed, in my opinion, is new research and development of new classes of safe, sustainable, mood brightening drugs.

We would get very far just by developing new classes of drugs that could reverse the damage done by chronic stress, depression and trauma.

Just the ability to restore a normal, healthy brain would eliminate the desire behind a lot of compulsive drug use.

The SSRI class works partly by kickstarting hippocampal neurogenesis. The currently in clinical trial NSI-189 is an improvement in that regards.

Work should also be directed at finding ways to restore youthful dopamine levels in aging humans.

We could put an end to the truth behind lyrics like "Life goes on, long after the thrill of living is gone"

Re: Estimating Community Drug Abuse by Wastewater Analysis

#29

Post by danieltiIlett » Wed, Apr 20, 2016, 4:02 PM UTC

cmdrfred wrote: post #14

x5n1 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all harmful, baby. Now show us the funding! -DEA

*unless it's prescribed by a doctor for "back pain", then heroin is a-ok!

Back pain can't get bad enough to need that kind of treatment. Don't you know we're in the middle of a Opioid Epidemic that's killing white children?

Re: Estimating Community Drug Abuse by Wastewater Analysis

#30

Post by danieltiIlett » Wed, Apr 20, 2016, 4:11 PM UTC

justsaysmthng wrote: post #11

I find it very hard to believe that those excreted drug residues don't react with detergents, chemicals used for cleaning, oils from foods and all kinds of other pills, drugs and plants that end up in sewage. Does the study take that into account ? Also, it is said that about 80% of dollar bills contain traces of cocaine. So combine the measurements of drugs on money and of drugs in shit and you end up with an intere…

If it's made it through your body, it's likely to make it through the sewer... Not a lot of really reactive stuff there (cleaners/oils/detergents dissolve, not degrade), anything super reactive (e.g. bleach) exhausts itself chewing on poop. Microbial degradation is a thing, but it's not very different from human degradation so anything that's already been excreted is probably pretty stable.