The Hedonic Treadmill • Hacker News Board

Re: The Hedonic Treadmill

#21

Post by neogodless » Wed, Apr 20, 2016, 3:16 PM UTC

erroneousfunk wrote: post #17

neogodless wrote: post #6

"The material standard of living of a homeless person in modern-day Manhattan is several dozens of times higher than the wealthiest of kings ten thousand years ago." Can someone explain to me what their definition of "standard of living" is in this context? I get that they might have access to cleaner water, but surely easy access to food prepared for you and having a roof over your head in a snowstorm would sound re…

10,000 years ago, we were living in a pre-agricultural society (or, perhaps, only somewhat agricultural) Lots of wandering tribes, moving around following the food, hunting with sharp rocks. Hunger and starvation would be common, everything would be scarce, even for "kings" (which were really just tribal leaders) Modern construction wasn't a thing, dwellings were constructed out of sod, animal skins -- at the best, s…

This is an excellent explanation. Thank you!

It's amazing how much has changed in 10,000 years. I didn't have a good grasp on the timeline.

Re: The Hedonic Treadmill

#22

Post by erroneousfunk » Wed, Apr 20, 2016, 3:17 PM UTC

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #16

neogodless wrote: post #6

"The material standard of living of a homeless person in modern-day Manhattan is several dozens of times higher than the wealthiest of kings ten thousand years ago." Can someone explain to me what their definition of "standard of living" is in this context? I get that they might have access to cleaner water, but surely easy access to food prepared for you and having a roof over your head in a snowstorm would sound re…

Not Manhattan, but I work in a ritzy part of downtown Chicago and see homeless people literally eating garbage from dumpsters now and again. Yeah, I think the richest kings of Europe were doing a little better than that. I don't think the author understands what homelessness really looks like in dense urban areas and seems to have a Hollywood version of homelessness as his reference.

I don't think you understand what 10,000 years ago looks like. These weren't rich European kings, they were leaders of tribes on the cusp of discovering agriculture. In Europe, they lived in caves and tents and hunted with sharp rocks -- they arguably had it worse even than some of the other prehistoric groups in the Middle East and parts of Asia.

Re: The Hedonic Treadmill

#23

Post by FilterSweep » Wed, Apr 20, 2016, 3:23 PM UTC

blakesterz wrote: post #9

neogodless wrote: post #6

"The material standard of living of a homeless person in modern-day Manhattan is several dozens of times higher than the wealthiest of kings ten thousand years ago." Can someone explain to me what their definition of "standard of living" is in this context? I get that they might have access to cleaner water, but surely easy access to food prepared for you and having a roof over your head in a snowstorm would sound re…

" Material standard of living can be seen in the increase of real incomes that would increase the purchasing power of consumers, and is characterized by the ability to consume goods and services. Non-material standard of living is more qualitative, and refers to the improvements in quality of life and the environment." So (assuming that's the same definition they used) yeah, I guess the material standard of living is…

I understand they are trying to make a distinction between "relative to others" vs. "by absolute measures," and how we are prone to thinking only in terms of the former, but I'd still argue they are indeed ignoring quite a bit. Using our exponential increases in GDP as a measure of comparison seems a bit irrelevant.

Re: The Hedonic Treadmill

#24

Post by drzaiusapelord » Wed, Apr 20, 2016, 3:26 PM UTC

erroneousfunk wrote: post #22

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not Manhattan, but I work in a ritzy part of downtown Chicago and see homeless people literally eating garbage from dumpsters now and again. Yeah, I think the richest kings of Europe were doing a little better than that. I don't think the author understands what homelessness really looks like in dense urban areas and seems to have a Hollywood version of homelessness as his reference.

I don't think you understand what 10,000 years ago looks like. These weren't rich European kings, they were leaders of tribes on the cusp of discovering agriculture. In Europe, they lived in caves and tents and hunted with sharp rocks -- they arguably had it worse even than some of the other prehistoric groups in the Middle East and parts of Asia.

Eating freshly cooked meat from a domesticated or game animal is miles better than a rotting piece of garbage in a dumpster sitting in the hot sun.

I don't think we're understanding how filthy dumpsters are and how our bodies are not engineered to handle the types of bacteria that grow in those circumstances or just how dangerous and unhealthy urban areas are for the homeless. Even days old dried meat is going to be healthier, tastier, and safer to eat that whatever you find in a dumpster. Opening a dumpster and seeing a freshly cooked steak that has only one bite out of it is pure Hollywood bullshit. Its a major health risk to eat what you find in garbage cans. Hunting and gathering is infinitely better and safer.

Re: The Hedonic Treadmill

#25

Post by themodelplumber » Wed, Apr 20, 2016, 3:29 PM UTC

maldusiecle wrote: post #18

This is such a terrible argument, even by its own data. For instance: "The good-looking are on average 7% happier than the bad-looking." ...from which it draws the conclusion that being beautiful doesn't make much of a difference. But 7% doesn't seem like a small difference at all. Spending hundreds of hours for a 7% improvement doesn't seem like such a terrible deal to me. Of course it's a bad deal if that's time yo…

> But they're perfectly happy to confuse and harm others with their disingenuous rhetoric.

Well, we don't want to moralize or anything. (Because somehow drawing shaky conclusions from perfectly good data is worlds better than moralizing...)

Like one of those corny people who tells you to keep a gratitude journal. Let's not be that guy.

But you should _really_ keep a gratitude journal.

Re: The Hedonic Treadmill

#26

Post by brianlweiner » Wed, Apr 20, 2016, 3:30 PM UTC

Studies have cast doubt on whether Subjective Well-Being (SWB) levels actually return to normal after significant life events. [1] [2]

So a core element of this post may not even be an actual phenomenon.

[1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17469954 [2] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3289759/

Re: The Hedonic Treadmill

#27

Post by banku_brougham » Wed, Apr 20, 2016, 3:31 PM UTC

>The material standard of living of a homeless person in modern-day Manhattan is several dozens of times higher than the wealthiest of kings ten thousand years ago.

When your analysis leads you to a conclusion that is obviously false, it is time to reconsider some of your steps along the way.

Re: The Hedonic Treadmill

#28

Post by return0 » Wed, Apr 20, 2016, 3:32 PM UTC

It's not a treadmill, it's a ladder, even if it's a small step at a time. I bet people will be less happy if they follow the advice and stop seeking more happiness.

Re: The Hedonic Treadmill

#29

Post by sremani » Wed, Apr 20, 2016, 3:33 PM UTC

erroneousfunk wrote: post #17

neogodless wrote: post #6

"The material standard of living of a homeless person in modern-day Manhattan is several dozens of times higher than the wealthiest of kings ten thousand years ago." Can someone explain to me what their definition of "standard of living" is in this context? I get that they might have access to cleaner water, but surely easy access to food prepared for you and having a roof over your head in a snowstorm would sound re…

10,000 years ago, we were living in a pre-agricultural society (or, perhaps, only somewhat agricultural) Lots of wandering tribes, moving around following the food, hunting with sharp rocks. Hunger and starvation would be common, everything would be scarce, even for "kings" (which were really just tribal leaders) Modern construction wasn't a thing, dwellings were constructed out of sod, animal skins -- at the best, s…

10,000 years ago we lived like animals, now, we live like pampered pets.

edit: note* this comment should be viewed through the "obesity pandemic" prism.

Re: The Hedonic Treadmill

#30

Post by tgb » Wed, Apr 20, 2016, 3:35 PM UTC

hashkb wrote: post #20

maldusiecle wrote: post #18

This is such a terrible argument, even by its own data. For instance: "The good-looking are on average 7% happier than the bad-looking." ...from which it draws the conclusion that being beautiful doesn't make much of a difference. But 7% doesn't seem like a small difference at all. Spending hundreds of hours for a 7% improvement doesn't seem like such a terrible deal to me. Of course it's a bad deal if that's time yo…

Aren't you ignoring the alternatives which the author suggests have significantly better ROI?

Sorry I just skimmed the article and liked it but didn't really see any alternatives except for a gratitude journal. What else does the author suggest? Gratitude journals appear to be his shtick.