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Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight

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Re: Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight

#481

Post by nebusoft »

noir_lord wrote: post #469
prewett wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think we haven't started to hit physical limits of physics? A 4nm transistor is 7 atoms wide. Obviously, a one atom transistor is pretty much the absolute smallest possible, which would be about .5nm. Anything less than 7nm experiences quantum tunneling, which is going to really mess things up, and will get worse the smaller the size. [1] I imagine the interference between transistors will be fun... Ne…

Maybe but (and I could be way off I'm a programmer not a physicist) those limits are pretty much the limits on our current technology, it's a bit like saying "well we've reached the point of diminishing returns with this steam engine, that's it no more progress" and over in a shed somewhere else someone is inventing the AC electric motor. I'm optimistic because I've seen "end of progress" reports on computing power s…

They already use germanium in their manufacturing processes. It's not all germanium because there are challenges that would create. There are also benefits to mixing a different sized atoms into the same lattice to affect the speed in which the electrons travel so modern manufacturing often implants germanium atoms into the silicon lattices. I do agree that material improvements can change everything so the often spouted doom and gloom of stagnation is often unfounded.

Re: Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight

#482

Post by krschultz »

bcook wrote: post #46
anilshanbhag wrote: post #20

One must understand that this is re-structuring. Intel is probably letting go of some divisions it no longer intends to pursue. In the not-so-distant past, Microsoft did an internal re-structuring when Satya Nadella became the CEO. It isn't as bad as it is portrayed to be as most people end up getting re-hired in other groups or take the severance and join a new company.

and I am not down-voting you, I am re-structuring your karma. Yes, this may be good for the future of Intel or the employees losing their jobs... but right now, 12000 people are having their lives affected in drastic, unexpected ways.

It doesn't say that they are firing 12,000 people. Certainly some people will be laid off, but a reduction in head count of 12,000 is distinct from layoff count.

Assuming people stay in a job 4 years, you can get a 25% reduction in headcount per year by just not hiring. Intel has over 100,000 employees. They are likely hiring 10k-25k people per year just to stay at a constant size.

Re: Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight

#483

Post by nebusoft »

prewett wrote: post #360
noir_lord wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not convinced that moores law has ended (using the processing power doubles not transistor count doubles). We've hit the physical limits of our current processes but we haven't remotely hit the physical limits of..well physics. It's possible that we are on the flat before the next curve starts whether that curve will reach the consumer space I don't know but at the top end of computing (supercomputers) there is s…

What makes you think we haven't started to hit physical limits of physics? A 4nm transistor is 7 atoms wide. Obviously, a one atom transistor is pretty much the absolute smallest possible, which would be about .5nm. Anything less than 7nm experiences quantum tunneling, which is going to really mess things up, and will get worse the smaller the size. [1] I imagine the interference between transistors will be fun... Ne…

Mostly agree with what you said, but just throwing this fun tidbit out there. The stated nm "size" of transistors are no longer accurate (and haven't been for some time). For example, when a company says it's manufacturing at 16nm or 14nm...that is the size in which the chip designs are drawn and planned, but the physical size dimensions are closer to 20nm. Same will be true when they go down to 10 and 7nm, it wont actually be a 7nm transistor in physical dimensions. And as far as lithography, right now they're mostly looking at "extreme" ultraviolet wavelengths but the problem is mass producing is not currently feasible with with how long it takes the photoresist to react. That being said things like quadruple patterning allow them to get pretty small with EUV wavelengths.

Re: Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight

#484

Post by eloff »

vardump wrote: post #68
eloff wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be surprised to learn that AVX-512 is not available in Skylake - it will only be in the Xeon line. It also won't give you anywhere near double performance, since a lot of AVX2 code is memory bandwidth bound anyway (which is probably one of the reasons it's not in the desktop chips.) I would've bought a Skylake so that I can test code on an AV-512 machine. Now I'll keep my money and wait and see.

Current Skylake Xeons don't have AVX-512 either. For example no AVX-512 in this Skylake Xeon: http://ark.intel.com/products/93354/Intel-Xeon-Processor-E3-... I know about bandwidth issues, but you can also use big vector sizes to mitigate, more opportunities for simple schemes for realtime (de)compression of data. (Usually called packing/unpacking). But where you can work around bandwidth issues, you can get up to tw…

Yeah the E3 Xeons won't have it, they're basically desktop chips dressed up. The E5s are supposed to have it though.

Re: Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight

#485

Post by tostitos1979 »

forgetsusername wrote: post #453
tma-1 wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it's permanent. Interest rates are still super low, meaning companies can still take on debt to buy back their stock. The effect of quantitive easing remains until interest rates start going up and the Fed start buying government bonds from the banks.

> meaning companies can still take on debt to buy back their stock Please explain the problem here. You're acting like there's some big deception imposed on the public due to companies choosing to return capital to shareholders via one specific mechanism. As if somehow they're buying back stock and "fooling" people into thinking they're making more money or something, and stock prices are irrationally rising. The buy…

Shorting a stock isn't always practical. Stock buybacks can be deceptive if a company buys back stocks with debt and doesn't have proper cashflow to pay it off. Non-technical investors see the stock going up and keep piling more cash in. If you think markets are perfect, you have a lot to learn my friend.

Re: Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight

#486

Post by tostitos1979 »

varjag wrote: post #479
saiya-jin wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i think maybe only Swiss here have really sustainable model; others I know are typical socialist let's-make-more-and-more-debt-with-unsustainable-social-benefits (happy to learn if it somewhere else it works and can work in foreseeable future too without creating huge debt, forcing people to work in their late 60' etc). What Swiss specifically have - we all pay social deductions, within 3 pillars. If you end up unemp…

There's nothing particularly Swiss about it, similar schemes exist throughout Northern Europe. In Norway you can get 1-2 years benefits at about 60% your previous annual income with a cap near median national income.

These are nice schemes but the caps are worrisome. Modern professionals in North America pile on so much debt (student loans of a few 100K, mortgage debt of a lot more, etc.) that the countries average income doesn't reflect reality. In the Bay area, I hear laments from people making 200K that they cannot make ends meet. It is a crazy world.

Re: Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight

#487

Post by alanwatts »

UK-AL wrote: post #316
clord wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suppose the market just tracks widget factories. Every factory produces the same quality widgets, all shipping is flat-rate by distance and there are no tariffs or taxes. In this market, it's easy to determine market value of any particular widget factory: market share of world-wide production. Suppose everyone expects the demand for widgets to grow by 1% per year for the next 10 years. This growth might get priced i…

It wasn't really over valuing the price widgets. Valuation only includes all available information. You can't expect random acts of God to be priced in. Overvalution is when psychology everyone is bullish, but the facts are not backing that up.

This is what I was getting at. "Valuation" of "the market" is far more subjective and psychological rather than objective and empirically measurable.

Re: Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight

#488

Post by varjag »

tostitos1979 wrote: post #486
varjag wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing particularly Swiss about it, similar schemes exist throughout Northern Europe. In Norway you can get 1-2 years benefits at about 60% your previous annual income with a cap near median national income.

These are nice schemes but the caps are worrisome. Modern professionals in North America pile on so much debt (student loans of a few 100K, mortgage debt of a lot more, etc.) that the countries average income doesn't reflect reality. In the Bay area, I hear laments from people making 200K that they cannot make ends meet. It is a crazy world.

You can have your student debt repayments frozen here while unemployed, at the national bank's rate. Plenty of people with high mortgages too, but duh. We aren't living in a perfect world.

Re: Intel to Cut 12,000 Jobs, Forecast Misses Amid PC Blight

#489

Post by adrenalinelol »

dingo_bat wrote: post #383
adrenalinelol wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument "we can't fill all these open positions, please let us bring in foreign workers" then firing 10,000 people contradicts why they want the government to deregulate the system.

No, it just means none of the 10k people were qualified enough. They were not fit for the open positions. Otherwise there is no sense in hiring an H1B with the same salary plus all the H1B related fees and expenses.

The issue is a bit more complex than that (and I doubt middle management has a firm enough grasp on how to let go 10,000 people within a shot-time frame with proper diligence). There is a vested interest in deregulating the immigration system because it will drive down skilled labor costs, not filling "open" positions allows them to perpetuate their agenda at no cost to them (outside of a job listing). Anyone who has to work under the threat of deportation is going to work harder on average than someone who isn't. It's good for productivity, but bad for all the skilled labor in this country, INCLUDING the people who want to immigrate here for a better life, because they'll be subjected to it eventually too.
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